Lincoln 208-P2A Panama Pacific

Just joined in, thought I would share my research on this issue. Soctt's says 3-5 issued of the Panama Pacific proofs. I have found 10 examples so far of this particular one. Pictures below:

That is NOT a Panama Pacific proof.....

Color varies to greatly for PP proofs.
Could be 208P3 on india???

which one? #5?

Hard to tell from scans...
What is the paper type for these shown??

At one time I had two examples of this proof in my collection. They were not of the same color, and one was unlisted at the time. However, when Siegel (I think) ran the item with the piece out as a certified example, I realized that there are two colors for the Southgate proof of this and that both are good. I then swapped the lesser known version with a 6c Lincoln specialist who already had the standard shade. I still have the other and will scan it to compare with the group you have here.

In the group above I am quite sure the fifth item down is a Roosevelt proof (note the grey card top and right) and possibly the last is too. The pink is the lesser known color and the brown rose is the usual. Scanner variation may account for some of the shades we are seeing here - not sure. All this has come to the surface since Ron Burns did a study to demonstrate that there were "Southgate type" printings in 1915 as well as 1913, distinguished by tighter margins than the Roosevelts, but not identical cutting between the two printings. The paper of the later group is not as deteriorated as the earlier proofs, suggesting they were handled/stored differently.

"The ending has not yet been written." - Atrus

What am I missing. What does the Panama Pacific issue Have to do with this issue of the 6 cent Lincoln banknote?

rohumpy.....
there was a SPECIAL PRINTING of these die proofs made
for the PP Expo....
Very few sets made....over 400 different per set.

Kevin, You might want to take a peek at this page from the William Ainsworth exhibit at the Frajola site to see what I am referring to about shades of the PP proofs:
http://www.rfrajola.com/ba6c/6_1.jpg

He shows three shades, including one with a nip out of the top middle that is a very different shade from the one shown here. That is a third shade from the ones I referred to earlier.

That there are far more than 5 examples of these small die proofs is beyond dispute. That they are all Panama-Pacific/Southgate proofs is quite another matter. Bear in mind that what Hugh Southgate put up for the exhibition display did not require all five of what was the supposed limit of known examples. The "five" came out of the archives of what had remained after he did his work, so their connection to the exhibition is temporal at best, and it now appears was not entirely unique.

What is not yet clear to me is how much of this diversity of origin is shared by other issues? How different are they?

essayk.....you are correct

Ok, looked up where all these came from:
#1 Seigal #953 3/2008
#2 not sure
#3 Seigal #930 3/207 (enlarged shows blip on right lower)
#4 Spink Shreves #111 4/2009 ex Brazier ex Ainsworth - on the page mentioned
#5 Spink Shreves #111 4/2009 ex Brazier ex Ainsworth - on the page mentioned and that exhibit shows the gray area on it.
#6 Matthew Benner #304 6/2006 (I own this one)
#7 Seigal #930 3-2007 (sm blip on right side)
#8 Matthew Bennet #335 4/2001
#9 billsbargainstamps on ebay 9/2014
#10 Seigal #930 3/2007
#11 National Postal Museum
#12 National Postal Museum


At any rate there seems to be at least 11 of these that I can verify. Each one has unique marks or color so they can be distinguished from each other.

#4 and #5 can be distinguished on the ex Ainsworth exhibit pages, the 3rd one there I can not tell due to poor resolution.

Here are 11 and 12

Here is a scan of my remaining 208a, which in hand appears very similar to your #3.



Now that I look at it I realize that back when I made the swap I must have given him the more "normal" shade of rose. This one is decidedly more pink than the issued stamps. It is gratifying to see that its color is not alone among the "extra" 208P2a proofs.

[But now I must confess to a bit of confusion. Item #8 was indeed lot 39 in MB sale #335, but it was in 2011, not 2001. That was the sale of the Eliot Landau collection, and Eliot was the friend to whom I made the swap. However, at the time I had thought that he already had one of these, and mine just added a shade to his collection. Yet, this proof was the only Southgate for #208 that sold in that sale. Since it is unlikely that he would have sold off a better grade example to keep this one, I am forced to think that this (#8) is the very proof I had swapped to him back then. It is indeed of a distinct shade from the one I kept (here), but if that's the reality, then I sure had the details turned around in my memory of it. The only redeeming hope is that he parted with one of these just prior to the sale of the rest. Then again, there were a good 15-20 years between the time of our swap and the sale of his collection. Who knows?!]

Anyway, here again is the scan the Matthew Bennett company used to sell that proof:

The Panama Pacific International Exposition was a World's Fair held in San Francisco in 1915. In conjunction with this exposition, the Post Office issued a set of stamps (the Panama Pacific Issue).

In addition, they put together a display of all issued stamps to that date from proofs printed for that purpose. There are believed to be between 3 and 5 copies of each of the proofs made for this exposition. The thin, yellow paper used for them was unstable, and many (if not most) have discolored somewhat over time. These are the Panama Pacific Proofs.

If you hear about "Roosevelt" proofs, these are from presentation sets made during the Roosevelt administration. They are mounted on grey cards. Many of these books have been broken up and individual stamps have been cut from the pages. Additionally, there are "Atlanta" trial color proofs, which were issued in 5 colors for showing at the Atlanta Cotton Exposition in 1881. One sheet of 50 of each of the 5 colors of all of the stamps to date.

Below are some for comparative purposes:
Small die proof, Roosevelt proofs, and Panama Pacific proofs

Actually Chip, the first item in your group is not a small die proof. It is a large die proof in which the card backing has been reduced to just outside the sinkage area. So it is a P1 not a P2. For that issue and for the 6c of 1882, the Roosevelts and the Panama-Pacific/Southgate proofs on wove paper ARE the small die proofs (P2 and P2a).

Here is a view of the Roosevelt (center) and PP (right) small dies for the 6c of 1882. The item on the left is the Roosevelt small die for #159P2, which is very similar but distinct from the 208s. They are however easy to confuse when viewed in isolation from others.




To complete the comparison, here is a pic of the 159P2a PP small die from the Eliot Landau collection that sold via Matthew Bennett sale #335 in 2011 as lot 39.

I just dug up 1 more to add, now a total of 13.

208P2a #13 Siegal #816-1720 9-1999 $800 (tear left upper side)