Superdeal / Rushmore... This One Will Ice Your Cake...

Don, you're not responding to something that Ike has pointed out twice now in this thread. One of the great, proactive hobby protections that the APS and ASDA are already providing, that would work as much on ebay as anywhere, has to do with the "registration" of people in the hobby trade through membership. This couples with the recommendation that potential buyers patronize the dealer members (with the hint that ONLY dealer members should be frequented by some members). Between the lines the message is: we don't admit just anyone as a dealer, so buyers can trust dealer members, because we screen them and can act if there is reason for complaint against them.

People who prefer buying on ebay should try to get as many of the sellers they buy from to join the APS or ASDA, and then restrict their buying to APS or ASDA "approved/affiliated" sellers only. While it is true that the worst legal consequence these groups can leverage at present is expulsion from the society, there are lots of publicity doors that open up when a seller is put under a ban. So, hobby newbies have a place to go, and irrespective of temptation they don't need to be victimized. Get them to join the APS right away, and then limit their patronage to APS approved sellers.

But if buyers insist on buying from sellers who are not APS or ASDA members, then they defy the odds at their own risk. When they eventually get the skill to decide for themselves, they can venture out at their own risk to wrestle with the bogeymen. But there always have been, and always will be, lots of shadowy, ugly places in the 'ole world, and no amount of legal action is going to stop that.

Wouldn't you agree that until collectors insist on making use of the protections we already DO have available, a further expenditure of effort against a wave of avarice is going to be limited in what it can achieve. Most APS and ASDA functionaries are volunteers, and few people volunteer to take on these legal battles. They would not need to if collectors didn't venture into questionable territory in the first place.

Newbie education should start with APS membership. Period.

I absolutely concur that joining a larger organization is a helpful thing; ideally everyone would do this. I also do not have a lot of tolerance for newbies who expect others to do their homework for them, any hobby requires a person to become educated and 'a fool and his money' rings true in my mind.

That said, it is a question of timing. I simply do not believe that a person joins a hobby group as a first step upon entering it. Years ago this was probably more common; joining a local or national club was done a lot quicker in a hobbyists evolution.

In this day and age there are many people who are introduced to the hobby via ebay and other online venues. Frankly I believe that far more folks will wander into forums like these well before they ever hear of APS or other organization. And as we have seen, they already often have stamps in hand ( inherited or otherwise) and have preconceptions of the hobby.

The APS is a fine source for better quality material but would any of us really tell a new hobbyists to go try to buy the standard stock items there? (For example, US stamps 1940- through now). In retrospect a lot of us might wish we had done this and never even spent money entry level material; instead jumped right into the better quality items. But I think the truth is that the majority of collectors start slowly and build their collections with more modern material first. ebay certainly offers a huge, competitive amounts of this kind of material. (More often than not folks in these forums steer new hobbyists away from established APS/ASDA dealers like Mystic for this kind of material and tell them to use ebay.) And I believe that once people are comfortable using ebay for lesser material they tend to continue to use it as a buying source.

So yes, I agree that buying form APS/ASDA dealers is great idea for hobbyists. Ideally everyone would join a local or national organization early on, study hard to come up to speed and be knowledgeable, and use common sense before making purchases. But how many hobbyists are we losing before they come up to speed? Is it realistic to expect them to join APS as a first step in the hobby?

I am happy to push back against non sequitur criticism of the APS. I have hung the bait more than once and, as yet, no one has suggested that the fraudsters are members-in-good-standing of the APS, ASDA, etc.

I am happy to push back against outlandish law enforcement schemes, like RICO indictments, and treating stamps as securities, and trans-national civil suits to be paid for with other people's money, etc.

I am happy to push back against Hollywood movie scripts, like "... a State Attorney General office with some young, idealistic lawyer ..."

I am happy to push back against evidence-free claims that ebay fraud is the cause of declining subscriptions to Linn's or declining membership in local stamp clubs & attendance at stamp shows; SCF does more to undermine the Linn's subscriber base than any shady stamp 'upgrading' cartel, and SCF is the stamp club whose 24/7 meetings I regularly attend, despite paying dues (worth every penny) to my analog local stamp club.

Membership in the hobby has been declining for decades for all of the reasons we have discussed; again, I hung-out the bait, and no one has come forward to claim that they know even one person who quit collecting stamps because a few bad buys on ebay.

By comparison, we *all* have seen people walk away in disgust after finding-out that their inherited treasures are, in the worst way, priceless. Breaking the get-stamps-to-get-rich nonsense is one reason I posted:

https://goscf.com/t/38527&

In the past, I'vd offered what I thought was good advice about Stamp Smarter, and I even slid an understated plug into the Suez-Panama Canal thread, so we are hardly in opposition on the issue of combating fraud.

I offered what I think was the *only* practical recourse-to-law-enforcement plan in this thread. Period.

But, of all of the things that are damaging the hobby, I think that ebay fraud falls well behind things like the disappearance of postage stamps from everyday life.

I am on your side; I just want you to do a better job of being on your side.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

"I am happy to push back against non sequitur criticism of the APS. I have hung the bait more than once and, as yet, no one has suggested that the fraudsters are members-in-good-standing of the APS, ASDA, etc.";

Are you really serious in your belief that before our national philatelic organizations should "get involved" in something like ebay fraud that the perpetuators must first be members?

Wow! If so, that is amazingly short-sighted in my view. There are quite a few well-documented cases where APS "got involved" when the fraudster wasn't an APS member. That certainly should not be the benchmark for involvement. Rather, harm caused to their membership (specifically) and to the hobby (in general) should be.

What I am about to say about APS membership here will apply in many respect to ASDA membership as well.

I understand what you are hitting at, Don, in your depiction of typical newbie action and list reaction. I think what you picture is commonly the actual picture. But that is not surprising and is certainly much of the problem. Newbies don't know better and need a bit of guidance, whether they appreciate that or not. Couldn't/Shouldn't the members of this community, especially those who already have membership in the APS or ASDA, be cautioning newbies about what to look out for among ebay sellers. Call it newbie orientation 101 - stick with sellers who are members of the APS or ASDA until you know enough about stamps to go it alone. There are lots of sharks out there.

Tell them, and then tell them, and before you leave, tell them. Catch them early. Put it in a FAQ post. Let them know that they will have far fewer scars and losses by staying with sellers who are held accountable to a code of ethics.

Whether the newbie is an early joiner or not, our advice should be uniform and unflagging. Look for those symbols. Not everyone gets to show them.

Some collectors sell duplicates or old collections and are not dealers. Make sure those that are APS members honor the code of ethics when they are sellers too. Put out the message that APS membership is a vital part of vigilance and due diligence in your market research as either a buyer or a seller. By creating a sense of widespread dependency upon the APS we will enhance its support base and give it the strength it needs to more effectively secure these matters. This isn't just about membership fees and numbers, it is about creating the ability to band together and make a difference. We gather around the code of ethics, and bash sellers who reject it, that is, who despise it and won't sign on. That neglect gives very visible, almost tangible evidence that they should be avoided in the marketplace.

If we rally around the APS code of ethics for seller (such as in the Stamp Sales Division) we can decrease appreciably the number of transaction casualties among our numbers. If we are strong that way, then the cartel and other abusers will have less power to ruin our collecting activity. Note that I said LESS, not "no power." But if the word is out, we will hit their bottom line.

Bill, Greetings:

Let's take a stab at "secondary agreement".

I agree that there is a profitable debate to be had about whether/not the APS et al should take on a larger role vis-a-vis policing behavior on ebay.

You agree that "... APS can play a key role if they had the courage to take their heads out of their butts ..." is not an important contribution to that debate.

Further, I will agree that the APS *could* make a perfectly sensible decision to involve itself more in outing fraud by non-members, all in the name of service to the hobby.

And, I would like you to agree that it is feasible that an organization can decide that policing its membership is about all it cares to do about fraud by non-members.

Q/ How much of the AMA's mission is combating medical fraud by charlatans who are not members of the AMA?

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

This is a crazy "debate" IMO. It isn't Ebola or ISIS or world hunger, but in our little philatelic niche, stamp fraud is a significant issue. These guys are cheats and fraudsters and they should be exposed and punished. Although that may seem impractical and hard or even impossible to do right now, that does not mean that anyone involved in the hobby shouldn't care or try. I applaud Don and Bill and others involved with Stamp Smarter for carrying on the fight. The APS, Linns, and others should at least be doing more to publicize the problem.

Your friend has 322 new lots up for bid.

I'd like to give a big thank you to Bill Weiss and 51Studebaker Dan for all the informative information they post on this forum regarding shady dealings. This thread was especially enlightening to me. The reality is that ebay is a prime venue for purchasing stamps and pointing out specific dealers who are not playing by the rules helps many of us. With over fourteen years on ebay, I'm very aware how little ebay cares about a "fair playing field". It's sad but true.

Thank you very much! I can't speak for Don, but very often it feels like a thankless job trying to stop fraud in online venues like ebay. We at Stamp Smarter have asked anyone intrested in helping, to check listings in a limited way - maybe a half hour every so often - and report to SS those items you feel are problematic. For SS to be successful long range, we need a lot of help.

The level of bogus material from this seller really makes me scratch my head. Check out this current listing; it looks like a 12 y.o. cut these 'perf' holes. Geez, if you are going to fake a stamp at least make a good run at it and get the perf holes lined up correctly.

LOL I have to agree. Some of their stuff looks pretty bad. But then again some of it is OK and not always overpriced.

It's like any item on ebay. You have to examine it to the best of your ability. Take into account it may not be so easy to return and bid or don't bid accordingly.


I picked up a pair awhile back from "them" for $125. That same exact pair sold in a 2009 Shreves sale for $375.