Please Help Id'ing 219-Dp / 220-D Varieties...

I've added a *known* perf'd 219D for reference...

The horizontal pair is on India, NG, purchased as "219DP"...
not quite lake, not quite carmine, perhaps a lake variety...

The vertical pair, which was also purchased as 219DP w/gum
I believe to be 220D given it strongly appears as Carmine,

With all of Scott's suffixes, including PP and RA, it's
a bit of a task...

You are correct, the top right pair and stamp below are lake and the vertical pair is carmine.

Thank you, Bill... much appreciated...

What would be the specific Scott numbers
on the pairs using 'today's' numbering...

I have some doubt that the horizontal pair is on India paper. It doesn't look white enough to me, and its color is dull, which is not at all typical of what you see on India paper. As for its color shade, it is halfway between the true lake of they perforated stamp and the carmine of the 220P vertical pair. I call that "carmine lake" but do still group them with the lake shades. However, there are numerous trial colors and color shades printed on stamp paper, so you can get a nice range of shades. Unfortunately, Scott has stepped back from listing as many of these shades as they used to.

Here is a Scott #149P3 on India and it isn't as sharp as some of my others? I bought from Bill too Bill Langs I meant ...I love it though so no complaints here my friend. Just an example of a proof on India (bamboo/rice paper) It as some character but it does the job nicely!

(some/most of that debris is merely dust and stuff inside the mount)






I agree. Maybe a P4 on card stock?

It's still an absolutely beautiful piece nomatter whats it's printed on! Congrats! -Jeff

disi123, current Scott number for lake on India is 219DP3, however, I suspect your horiz pair is actually on stamp paper not India (219DP5, IMO much more likely than 219DP3 based on appearance.) The carmine on stamp paper version (your vert pair) is 220P5. All P5 versions are listed (and priced) as pairs.

BTW, your scan also nicely illustrates just how close the 219D and 220 shades can get... Some of the issued stamps can be tricky to identify without good references to compare against (discussed in another thread.)

Randall....
UR horiz. pair looks to be #219DP3.
UL vert pair looks to be #220P5 (on stamp paper, with gum)

kevin504, why do you think the horizontal pair is P3? Nothing about it (color, impression, paper, etc.) looks P3 to me. My guess is that it's stamp paper w/ no gum, not Inida paper.

Ken....
I based it on the fact Randall posted NO GUM.
Yes, I guess the gum could have been removed previously.
Until I see it personally, Im gonna stick with my assumption.

Kevin

Most of the 220P5's and many of the 219DP5's are found without gum (or with disturbed gum.) I'd actually be surprised if disi123's 219DP turned out to be on India. To me, the paper is too yellow and has a wove/mesh look to it, just like the stamp paper variety. Also, the shade/impression is more consistent with stamp paper than India. I'd give it a 90% of being on stamp paper, based on the scan posted.

Maybe he can post a picture of it in fluid, as it would quickly & conclusively answer the question of whether it's on India or not.

As an aside, the 2c imperforates on stamp paper are frequently found "no gum" (both shades.) The 2c carmine is SO common no gum (more common than OG IMO) that Scott even lists a NG value, something they don't do for any other denomination of the set.

Way too yellowish to be india paper. I agree with Ken.

Since my comment is being ignored, maybe I should back it up.

This is what I expect for these when someone says P3:




BTW I am in the market for a block of the 219DP3.

essayk, I wasn't ignoring your comment, I (thought I) was reinforcing it :-) I agree...appearance, paper color, stamp color and impression all wrong for 219DP3.

BTW, at least as far as expertizing services are concerned, carmine lake shades on the issued stamps are always identified as Scott 219D, not Scott 220. I would (and think most dealers do) include the carmine lake proof shades (like Randall's horizontal pair) in the 219D family of proofs. I agree that there is wide a range of shades on the issued Scott 219D-220. Did you see the post I made in another thread with a few stamps from my 219D/220 reference set?

Thank you one and all for your participation
and help... after re-examining the horizontal
pair, I can observe both the color difference
and paper thickness to India... most especially
with the yellow paper appearance...

I know I have a couple of horizontal pairs of
"white-India" in the safe... I'll pull those
out tonight when I have time, to re-acquaint
myself with the differences...

Essayk... yesterday, I observed two 219DP3
blocks on ebay offered by citystamp & Langs...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...3&_sacat=676

Randall

I don't think I did see that post. If you have a link it would be helpful. As for the association of the intermediate shades of the 2c of 1890, I noted in my first post that I too class the dull carmine lake with the lake shades. I hope you caught that, because it sounds like you are offering a corrective. That said, however, when the balance of carmine versus lake tips toward a predominance of carmine, then I cross over to the carmine side in my terminology. Carmine lake is not quite the same as lake carmine. If they are not already doing so, the expert committees need to come on board with that, since that kind of nomenclature is already acknowledged in the case of close shades for the 6 cent. Maybe they do, and I just have not kept up. But I can be shown. So please, give us/me a link.

It helps when one agrees with someone to start by acknowledging the agreement, then amplify from there.


BTW disi123, if you hold that horizontal pair up to the light and see the waffle pattern of a web weave, then you know conclusively you are dealing with wove paper and not India.

I had bought a P3 block from Bill Langs, possibly the same one you are seeing, and when it arrived it would not pass the transillumination test and did not compare with my bona fide India paper items. Bill sometimes has trouble with that, and I've know that. As for the other vendor, do you have an item number I could run down? I searched for 219DP3, but I don't recall that one coming up.
[Ah, I just found it, and it does look like a good candidate. Thanks, I will look into it.]

Essayk... here's the link for the other block...
from the photo, it appears 'whiter'...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-219DP3-...em53eb8df671