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Please Help Id'ing 219-Dp / 220-D Varieties...

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Pillar Of The Community
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578 Posts
Posted 11/03/2014   12:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add srailkb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My post w/ the scan of some of the issued 219D/220 shades is here:
https://goscf.com/t/39945&whichpage=2

I did misread your comment that you classify carmine lake shades with the lakes, as most others do (sorry.) I don't spend a lot of time surfing these forums and tend to scoot through the junk posts very quickly, occasionally missing (or misreading) a post with real content, as I did with yours.

I do think that Scott should list "carmine lake" under 219D as it's distinctly different from lake (and often confusing to collectors who don't know how to classify a shade with so much carmine in it...) I will resist the temptation to go off on my Scott rant about neglecting important variants like this while listing billions of subtle shade variants that even the hair-splitters don't care about.
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Posted 11/03/2014   12:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This looked like a good candidate for an India paper block:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-219DP3-...em53eb8df671

So I called the seller and asked and he assured me it was on India paper. Then I asked him to hold it to the light looking for a waffle/weave pattern. He did and said that yes, it did appear to have a weave pattern to it. So I told him that was he has is wove paper, not India. I don't know which of us was more disappointed.

So, I'm still in the market for a 219DP3 block.
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Posted 11/03/2014   12:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add srailkb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm suspicious that the second ebay lot you just checked on is a 219D anyway. Looks too carmine on my monitor; I'd guess 220P3 (or 220P5.)
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Posted 11/03/2014   12:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I know what you're saying on that, Ken, but if it had turned out to be on India I was willing to go for it either way, since the 219DP3 would fill a gap, with a nice piece at less than cat, and a 220P3, which cats at about 4 times the other, would have been a great bargain at $300. Moreover, it would have been an intermediate shade on India, which is always nice to bring together.

I looked over the link you sent (tyvm) and enjoyed your comments about the reference group. It is always nice to make contact with a kindred spirit, and you and I see eye to eye on the color problems of this issue - and we see the neglect by Scott, AND we see it in similar terms. BTW, some years ago I put together a group like yours which I arranged on the page after the style of Clarence Brazer with a two dimensional array. For grades of hue with four stages of each according to chroma and value. I could put up a scan if you think you would want to see it. I also have a couple of arrays for the trial colors and shades of the imperforates. Let me know if there is anything there you want to see.
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Posted 11/03/2014   12:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add srailkb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
essayk, I would welcome any shade studies you'd be willing to share. I think I've assembled a rather cool reference collection over the 17+ years I've been dealing full-time (plus 25+ years I was collecting prior to that.) Every time I buy a collection I go hunting for stuff that will help in that regard. Many of my reference items aren't particularly valuable (as you can tell from the examples from my 219D/220 group, which probably has a street value of around $0.25 LOL) but finding those "borderline" shades, papers, etc. can be pretty daunting! Anytime I see a nice image of a study or comparison posted (or even a scan of a die variety, new plate scratch I haven't seen before, etc.) I always grab the image and add it to my reference folder... Your shade study (or studies) would be greatly appreciated.
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Posted 11/04/2014   1:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I debated about hijacking this thread any further, but with the thought that we are exploring color shades on these I will put up a scan of that array of stamp shades I spoke about. My apologies to the originator of the thread, and if this is judged inappropriate, I will pull it and start another thread.





It is necessarily a bit small, even when you click on it, but at least you can get the idea. In the vertical plane the hue ranges between lake at top and carmine below, but two grades of chroma for each give a rough continuum. Unfortunately the terms shifted from dark/light to dull/bright, so it isn't entirely consistent. But the gradation should be evident as your eye traces down the "columns." In the horizontal plane we arrange the stamps in each hue by color value, ranging from deep to pale. That, of course, is just the flip-flop of dark/light which is the more conventional way of discriminating value. But that was the label I used for the chroma, which really should have been deep/pale. So my scales suck, but the depiction of the variations is clear, I think.

Note that I left a gap with but a single entry for the transition from lake to carmine. That stamp really is between everything.
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Posted 11/04/2014   1:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add srailkb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for posting those, essayk
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Posted 11/04/2014   10:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add disi123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Essayk.... hijack away, my friend...
anything for the benefit of the SCF
community is A+ with me...

Randall
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Pillar Of The Community
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1756 Posts
Posted 11/09/2014   01:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add disi123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
BTW disi123, if you hold that horizontal pair up to the light and see the waffle pattern of a web weave, then you know conclusively you are dealing with wove paper and not India.


Essayk... I've examined all of my pairs... and you nailed it...
all have the "waffle pattern"... so, therefore, I, also, am
now on the market for both a single and pair(s) on India...

Randall
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