Learning On This Stamp/Trimmed Or Reperfed

Ok say I saw this stamp. I want it for my album. Is it real or fake? Is it trimmed or re-perf?

Just learning here (Don't think ill of me, lol)and tried this Srail test- I found nothing to show or tell me how to do this test so fiddled with what was here where I did read in matching bottom to top perfs. and left to right perfs.

Is it correct the top is trimmed? I can tell just from looking at it, straight perfs look cut off or trimmed. Right?

Is it correct even when the top and bottom don't perfectly match, especially in the last four perfs on the top/bottom right, it does line up somewhat and the left/right perfs match, so I would say it is an original stamp just trimmed top with original perfs? Right?

Ok ears open what say you?

Wrong....
why would only 1/2 the stamp match??
Left and right match??
Why not top to bottom??

reperfed.

So are you saying left/right don't match?

and top bottom don't match?

and all sides are reperfed?

is the top trimmed at all?

if it helps just start over and give your analysis of this stamp, I am thinking of buying it. They are asking $11.00.

just figured I would try to learn something here about reperf and trimmed stamps.

thank you for your input.

The top is trimmed. During this period there were no "natural" straight edges top or bottom.






Not sure what you mean by "correct," but you have shown and seen that the perf holes top and bottom do not line up ALL THE WAY as they should if original. Compare the holes one by one and you will see that they get further and further off. If you count the holes you will find that in the space of ten holes on the bottom the top has eleven.






Look again at your picture. The left and right perfs DO NOT line up for the entire length of the sides. It's not just about the sizes of the holes, it's their separation too. The right perfs are spaced more widely apart than the left.






Actually, what your pictures show most clearly is that this stamp has been reperforated on AT LEAST two sides; T or B and L or R. Without comparison to a known standard I cannot rule out that the reperfing could extend to T and B and L and R.


Let me suggest that instead of trying to do this by a memorized set of "rules" why not concentrate on learning production principles? Why are the perfs uniform when the gov't does them, and are they always? [not always entirely; depends on the type of perforation method] What does the Srail test actually attempt to show? What can it NOT show by itself.

Principles, not rules.

Ok digesting what is said. Thank you.

I would gladly add this stamp to my collection. It is a very nice and affordable example of an eight-arrowhead fancy cancel.

Yes, it has some issues. It has been trimmed and re-perforated at top, clearly in order to diminish the visual effect of the thin/damage at UR. It may also be r/p at left but it is not the few perfs that do not quite srail-up (pin damage?) but rather the lack of balanced penetration into the design. At left, they clearly affect the scrollwork yet at right there are only a few incursions into the outer frame line.

Yes... my first "real" post. Thank you for newbie tolerance and please see my introduction.

kollectorkurt, I think that I'd be inclined to wait a bit more. It has a least one reperfed side, and possibily more, also the perfs are into the design on the left. The black circle of Vs cancel is not all that uncommon. Welcome to the site!

One problem is that you somehow distorted the crop as you moved it (look especially at the top comparison -- Those aren't the bottom perfs pasted up there -- they've been elongated vertically/compressed horizontally.)

One of the keys to doing the test is to make sure you're not rotating, resizing, etc. the side when you move it over.

I believe the top and bottom perfs are genuine (just defective at top.) I do see a slight variation in gauge between the left & right sides, so maybe a reperf on one or the other. However, a "best fit" along the entire side shows that even the left and right perfs "may" be genuine (I've seen worse fits with genuine perfs from this era.)

My manipulation of your stamp image is pasted below:

I will have to practice. Thanks for your time in putting up a picture and doing the test. Looks much better then when I did it.

I was reading an article from one of the stamp society's and the top wouldn't be trimmed either (as I was trying to use the term/learning)but the article used the term scissors blunted. The article used trimmed to mean perfs. completely cut off to try to make an un-perfed stamp, with top bottom a partial trimmed stamp to fake a coil and all sides a fully trimmed to make un-perfed stamp.

I don't think anyone re-perfed this stamp to fake anything but if it was re-perfed to enhance it or make it look better at any rate I bought it and it is on it's way for my used liberty stamp USA album slot. I figured this was a good stamp to post here and study with people a bit, thanks again.

Despite the presence of perforations on stamps of this era. many users still cut them apart with scissors, etc. So a scissor or knife cut is not necessarily a kiss of death.

I learned a couple of lessons here, and I hope people will not be offended or take it amiss if I share them.

Larry, that article you read was not defining the terms "trimmed" and "scissors blunted" etc for all times, it was merely setting forth how IT was using them, and perhaps how it would recommend they be used generally. But writers are naturally going to vary in their choice of common expressions and how they apply them to special studies. The key in any discussion like this is to define how you are using your language. I have often been criticized for being too wordy in my explanation of things, but a lot of that has to do with defining my terms. When I don't do that, as I did not in this discussion, misunderstanding takes over.

The writer of the article you read is using a common word in a very particular way, and tells you so in his article. When I go to the barber to get my hair "trimmed" I do not expect him to take it all off. And when perforation teeth have been blunted by scissors cutting, they have been "trimmed" just as surely as if they had all been removed. When you asked if the top had been trimmed, and I acknowledged the opinion that it had, I assumed that we meant the same thing by our use of the word "trimmed." Namely, as a reference to the condition of the perfs as having been cut by scissors, as opposed to having perfs added to a natural straight edge. Perhaps that was a mistake, because neither of us had said exactly what we meant by that. I certainly did not meant what your author would have us mean by his recommended use of the word "trimmed." That they were cut by scissors is probable but not absolutely certain, so a term like "scissors cut" is a bit too exclusive. A knife and straightedge is usually faster and could produce the same result (though there are "step cuts" that could not come from a knife and straightedge).

As for my misreading of the picture evidence, I did not go the extra mile and redo the Srail test for myself as Ken did. Lesson learned: when offering an opinion, take the time or keep your peace.

I did not do that, and for that I apologize. Ken got it straight. Listen to him on this one.

essayk-Initially I commented in this thread before reading about scissor blunted perfs. so I think we were maybe on the same page. Trimmed some cut off, but I do hear the term often here (trimmed) and was hoping others would discuss just what trimmed is. That is happening and I thank you.

I just got a little more information after reading the article and was (learning) trying to use it and commented on it after you wrote your thoughts. Not directed at you, I hear the term over and over on this forum.

(correctly and incorrectly I am glad we are discussing it-maybe it will help others too with me as guinea pig. I stuck my neck out I did not expect to not meet corrective remarks from others, it is actually what I was depending on happening)

Here is the article scissor blunted perfs:
http://www.psestamp.com/appendix.chtml

Newbie

If it helps at all, if I was issuing a cert. for this stamp my description of the condition at the top would be;

"Top perfs reduced and cut straight and right 3 are short". Sometimes I incorrectly say "cut staight by scissors" but essayk is right as there is no easy way to say for sure by what tool they were so reduced.

I also want to comment on the tendency of some collectors to overthink the condition of the stamp. If you LIKE the appearance of the stamp and the "price is right" and you are the type of collector who does not mind some small faults, I say "buy it". It is mostly when contemplating buying more expensive items that you should be careful that the price is in line with the condition. This particular stamp catalogs about $140., and the cancel is rather common, but it does have eye appeal. I would value this at about $30/45. (see what the retail dealers here think?), so if you can buy it in that range, I think it's fine.

Tom has a new home Abe and Andrew, George and Ben approve so is good nuff fer me. He arrived just today.

I actually browse at times ebay with key words Used,Faults and Space Filler to see what lurks there about in that category. They ,(some older more expensive ones),do seem to come at a good price and fit just fine with my used USA Liberty Stamp Album Collection. A little character in a stamp is kinda interesting, just look at Abe, whats he been doing playing fire chief all smoked up like that.







Now lets start the bidding, do I hear 35, 35, 40, 35, 40...45?