Are These Perforations Possible?

Essayk,
I apologize for the emo content. I realize this is an excuse that I already mentioned but I am in a place that I never have been before. After 57 years of good health I nearly died on the operating table and spent three weeks in the hospital. I currently am at home with tubes connected to my kidneys and coming out of my back. I am on some heavy drugs. And to top it all off, I've starting chemo and radiation next week, the prognosis is not good.

I mention this because I realize I now have a new urgent emotional need to make contribution to philately. To make a difference. To give back.

Truthfully I probably shouldn't be posting at all. It feels like time is running out but that is my problem, not yours or philately's. So again, sorry for allowing some of that emotional urgency creep into my posts, I respect your attempts to keep it logical. And by the way, I never felt for a second that your ethics were in question. I completely respect your opinions. I will refrain from posting.
Don

Please do NOT refrain. This is a valuable discussion and your posts may well play a positive role in your recovery. They are an element of therapy.

d307menace

Welcome to the SCF forum. I have started another thread for your stamp question using your original post. I titled it " Is this 519 worth the trouble"

You did the right thing in bringing your question here. Sorry the limiting rules made it more difficult, but without them sites like this get spammed to death. Please don't let that discourage you.

I hope you get some good replies that will help you.

Maybe my use of the word "rule" is not exactly descriptive, but the catalog note says "All used examples of #39 **MUST** (my emphasis) be accompanied by certificates of authenticity issued by recognized expertizing committees". Does that sound like merely a "suggestion" to you? To me, it sounds like if you don't have such a valid certificate, than the "used" price can not correctly or ethically be claimed for this stamp.

Continuing.....as Don has pointed out, when a seller gives me a hard time and sounds sort of like you did here "well who are you to question my listing and why are you more qualified than me" (or something similar), I invariably offer to pay for the cost of certification from "Any US-Based Expert Service" that agrees with their claim, and to date not ONE person (including some very big ebay sellers) has ever taken me up on the offer, which I consider to be extremely fair, demonstrating my sincerity 100% and last, being willing to "put my money where my mouth is". I don't take these reports lightly. I think they do a lot of good, as the statistics posted here by Don clearly demonstrate. But imagine how much more impact we could have if everyone reading this thread would take up the cause and report problematic listings?

You also say;
" We started talking about the 122 listing. Seems to have expanded into 519s. Where I had no problem with the 122 listing, the 519 listing is pure fraud and the seller should not be allowed to do this. But not my problem & ebay is certainly not going to police it. But guess what? Neither are you..."

But Don's numbers show that we CAN police it if we had greater numbers of reporters who believed it was a good enough cause to want to donate a half hour or hour of their day to helping the cause.

Next to Essayk;

more and more I see your posts criticising the "style" in which some folks present their point of view, as though only you possess the necessary skills to do so. Remember, few readers here know who you really are, and while I won't say so without your permision, given your professional background, your attendance at a Theological College has obviously shaped your views on many topics, and you seem to want to approach everything from this theological perspective. It is your whole life, so it probably can't help but color your perspective on many things, but you seem to see way more "gray" area in things than most others do. That's fine, but it doesn't give you the right IMO to tell others how they should be presenting their point of view. Counter it, if you wish, but without questioning their style (just my advice as an old acquaintence...).

You have implored Don and I (and others) to come at this from a different perspective. Fine. That's your opinon of our "style", but now I want to ask you - WHAT would you suggest is the solution to combating fraudulent/problematic listings online?

Last, I have, in the past 2 years, discontinued all of my regular print advertising including Linn's, American Philatelist, Scott catalogs, etc. The only printed ad I had was in last June's Summer Seminar booklet handed out to students. The only new business we get is whatever comes off the website, or from our small listing ads on ebay. Otherwise, it is our established client base that provides all the incoming work. So indeed, I am "winding down" as much as I can. So any criticism by anyone that I'm trying to drum up business by my any anti-fraud work I do is ALL WET. I do this stuff simply because I believe it serves the greater good. Even if only a tiny percentage of buyers are saved the grief and cost of buying something that's misrepresented (whether intentional or unintentional) it is all worth the countless hours I've put into this work. And the number of hours I've put in is dwarfed by the number Don has put in, so criticisms like Kevin's (forgive me essayk, for my poor "style") are typically inept.

P.S.
Don, how are you feeling/doing..?
Robert

Clark:

This statement caught my eye while reading through this excellent thread. Would you care to expound upon this? As a frequent auction buyer, I am interested to hear about other people's negative experiences.

Neeskens13,

I was trying to make the point that practices condemned on ebay exist elsewhere in the stamp marketplace. There is a prominent auction house in Philadelphia I avoid because when I looked at some lots on-line I saw enough misleading descriptions to make any questionable ebay seller envious. The auction house has a reputation for "throwing material at the wall to see what sticks". I suppose that some will find bargains because some misdescriptions will inevitably favor buyers.

Years ago I contacted a seller on ebay about a problem. I received such a nasty response that I stopped contacting sellers I didn't know. I had to wait a couple of years, but the seller finally listed a mint never hinged US type II 599A in a lot as a type I 599, a much less expensive stamp. Instead of contacting the seller, I bought it as a 599, repaying the insult. Too bad. Trust and good relationships between buyer and seller go in both directions. Although some individuals claim to do well capitalizing on the mistakes of others, I am not sure that this is always a winning strategy. One vest pocket dealer known for this ended up bankrupt leaving some auction houses holding the bag.

In any case, like on ebay, levels of trust with different auction houses varies. In many cases, it is will worth paying an auction agent to help avoid problems with lots that cannot be examined in person. In any case, know your opponent before entering the ring. If mud wrestling is the venue, be prepared to get muddy.

Clark

Hello Don! Nice to meet you. (I wasn't sure who owned the StampSmarter site!) My comments were not intended to be negative; I have tremendous respect and admiration for what you (all!) are trying to do. My comments were intended to be constructive.

I will preface this by stating I am just a collector - a philatelic purist. I've never sold a stamp in my life. I've got no ulterior motive in this whatsoever.

My comments were about both the StampSmarter site & this thread - mixed together. This discussion began about a (badly!) reperfed 122. The comments began with ebay bashing, and moved on to the seller - basically mad at the seller for not including the word "reperforated" in his item description. I simply stated that the picture was all that was necessary.

Anyone bidding/buying any of these high value stamps is experienced. (If not, then no more needs to be said about them!) I compare them to folks spending hundreds on common US commems - slabbed & dubbed 'gem 100 super duper' - and simply state they are not philatelists, or even collectors. Investors, speculators, or folks with money to burn - but not stamp collectors.

My comments were not about 'all' sellers or the 'best' dealers. That should've been self-evident. We're talking about the sellers in this thread & on the site. This is a relatively small group of very sophisticated, experienced, and knowledgeable businesspeople. They know exactly what they are doing. They do not need to be educated. (They should be charged with a crime - but not including the word 'reperforated' is not - unfortunately - yet - a crime!)

Have dealers responded to you? Clearly. It makes good business sense to respond. To appease you. To give the impression they care & are trying to do the 'right' thing. Does putting the words 'possible reperf' at the bottom of the description seem to have stopped the bids? Did the bids continue after this? (Does anyone actually read what's buried in the wasteland of the description box, buried under all of the terms?)

Do I have evidence/data? Sure. A bunch of it. How about 35 bids and a $330 sale price on an altered $5 stamp. (And 5 more 519s miraculously for sale at the same time - all with many bids!) And on & on it goes. Seems to getting worse...

But we're talking about words here - specific words we want to see included in the descriptions/titles of the listings. So I was simply pointing out some specific words in the StampSmarter comments.

I like your restaurant analogy; I'll use it a few times. Assume you own a restaurant, and you sell a special entree of filet mignon for 2 that sells for $135.

You made the following comment: "there are no negative comments about sellers, we review LISTINGS, not sellers."

(I find this comment to be hysterically funny!)

The following words appear - numerous times - in your site: "this alteration encountered frequently on this seller's listings"

This isn't about the seller? It's about the 'listing'??

"Your filet was terrible - undercooked & overpriced." (My comment has nothing to do with the restaurant or the chef - it is just about the steak!) (??!)

Let's now differentiate between the obviously reperfed 122; the obviously faked 519; & the non-certified used 39. I've commented on the 122 - no problem; the 519 - throw'em in jail; so now the 39. I accept everything you said & everything Bill says. I'm not doubting you Bill - for even a second. But this is about 'words'! Your complaint, about the used 39s, is that the seller is not repeating the note from Scott? (Someone is bidding $1700 on a stamp, yet still needs the seller to copy the note from Scott?)

What if the NY Times restaurant reviewer - who gives out the awards - wrote a review on your restaurant's website, stating "Only buy this filet from those restaurants who have received the NY Times 4-star award" - (ok, not as good an analogy as the last one, but you get the point!) (And what about all those 'inexperienced' people out there reading your 'words'??)

I gave up collecting US - a while ago. Mostly because all I need are the high priced ones & because of all the crap for sale. I want to be a stamp collector; I've got no desire to be a detective or policeman. I primarily collect Turkey/Ottoman stuff for the past several years. I constantly see Eastern Rumelia #15 - (cv $.50) - being identified as Turkey #66 - (cv$200). If I had $.05 for every time I've seen this, I'd literally be a billionaire. I ignore it. It doesn't bother me. And I'm certainly not going to waste my time crusading against it, or trying to stop it. Any more than I worry about sellers of used cars, genuine rolexes, or reperfed 122s...

My only criticism was that your approach/attitude seems too idealistic to me. Time/effort wasted - banging your heads against a wall. I'm simply trying to ease your pain! Going after either ebay or the sellers is like spitting in the ocean. (To be fair to Bill, you will learn quickly that getting the little white ball into the little hole is equally frustrating!) Seems to me that time/effort is better spent educating buyers & attacking the source. Post a picture of the fake 519 here & explain why it is obviously faked. Unfortunately, my sense is that many of the buyers bidding - on the auctions we're discussing - couldn't care less...

Do I know where the fakes are coming from or how to stop them? Sorry, no. But someone does. Some of these quality sellers - who are thanking you - certainly know where they are sourcing material. Cut off their supply - by attacking the supply - and the problem will disappear. And these people are actually committing a crime - you would have support from authorities - (actual police!) - to help chase these folks down.

I've been very turned off by all the ebay bashing & seller bashing. There's been lots of it. If 1/100th of that time was spent attacking the forgers, the problem would've been much smaller today. The problem appears to be getting worse, thanks to the 'buyers' - and I've got little sympathy for someone spending hundreds of dollars yet fails to do even the basic, simplest research. Would I help & contribute some time to the effort? I've thought about it - maybe this will give me some inspiration to participate a bit more actively - but again, I've got no sympathy for these buyers - fools & their money etc etc. There are more important causes out there than this...

For all of their faults - which are many - ebay has transformed the industry & breathed huge life into not just stamp collecting but many other areas as well. They built a beautiful new highway. We can't expect them to keep people from driving like lunatics...that is beyond their responsibility.

I commend you all for what you're doing...even if it is small, it is a positive step & a worthwhile cause. For the sake of the hobby into the future. I'm just too cynical & pessimistic - I've simply looked at too many ebay auctions!

Finally - Don - I was not aware of your health issues. Best wishes for a speedy & full recovery!

You are calling for a police action by a large cadre (dare I say "army") of dissatisfied customers. Those are your words. Is that just a "style" thing? I think not. Your language gives evidence of a desire to "control" sellers and in that way gain some "control" over what you see as unethical fraudulent activity. But if you do not understand the distinction between rhetoric and style, and disregard the importance of how you say what you say, then you will not be able to lead others for long. That's not my rule. That's life itself.

From what you said here and have been saying it appears that you want to make sellers conform to some imagined rules of fair dealing you contrive. You think that with enough policemen you can make a difference. Okay, after you have built your army, will you be ready to face the opposition that eventually will rise up against you? You're not a threat yet, but once you are, it will rear up. Don't you see that repression is a vicious downward spiral?




Actually I have not asked you or anyone to change "perspective," and style hasn't come onto my radar at all so far. I look at the balance of rational and emotional remarks in your rhetoric, and I have asked you to recognize that appeals to emotion do not substitute for appeals to reason. That is not just a matter of style. This gets at the method you use for solving ethical problems. Poor methods usually produce poor solutions, or no solution at all.

Your challenge question here is far too nebulous. THE solution? listings ONLINE? (really?) Since the thread started with an inquiry into the selling practices of nystamps specifically, let's stick with that, but approach the problem differently. To do this requires that you stop visualizing them as miscreants bent on evil, and start to sympathize with their needs as honest businessmen with limitations. Think of business solutions, rather than civil ones.

Let us say that nystamps chooses to run a high volume operation and does not have time (or can't afford to take the time) to monitor the accuracy of the descriptions of their material. So they do a superficial job of identification and grading but make a lot of mistakes, with the result that a lot of people are getting "injured." Let us say that their no-questions return policy is not good enough; the buyers want more (protection). Let us even say that nystamps is willing to consider reasonable alternative strategies.


Why not make it worth their while to do a better job? Put some creative energy into finding a way to help their bottom line go up as their commitment to accuracy in description goes up. Business improvement grants - efficiency studies - hire a systems analyst to help them improve. Don't have funding for that? Get it.


That is how I would approach the nystamps problem, but that is NOT how I would approach EVERYONE. But then, I am not looking for a one-size-fits-all solution to this problem. Nor have I made a commitment to building a police force to keep order in the marketplace. I have no vested interest to protect.

Aside from a couple of operations in the United States and at least one in the UK still active, most of the altered stamps in the stamp marketplace are from collections. Unfortunately, most of the damage was done years ago. Forgeries started appearing in the late 19th Century. Fake US coils were so pervasive in the marketplace in the 1930s that the American Philatelic Society was able to intervene and finally put a stop to the Clairborne operation. They also were able to buy out the forger from the Yucatán. Other operations have been documented or are fairly well known among dealers. The philatelic press has always been reluctant to name names because they fear legal reprisals.

Yes education would help, but it is difficult to reach many collectors. Anyone reading this post who is not a member of the American Philatelic Society, the United States Stamp Society and the United States Philatelic Classics Society should join at least one or a specialized society in their area of interest. Bill Weiss, Irv Miller and I will be presenting a course on Expertizing at the APS Summer Seminar in Bellefonte, PA from June 21-26. We expect that the students will be able to identify faults and be aware of the wide range of alterations or repairs that can be made to stamps. Unfortunately, we can reach only a few.

When I started presenting a hour long seminar "How to Spot Fakes and Forgeries on the Internet", I was amazed at how many attendees had not been previously aware that so many stamps could be so easily altered. Few stamp dealers want to give their customers bad news about their collections, even if the stamps came from a competitor. It seems to be bad for business. No collector wants to be told that their collection is worth much less than they believed.



Any dealer with the ability to recognize altered stamps has a business problem competing with dealers who are not capable or do not want to carefully describe their stamps. Eventually, at the local level, careful dealers will become known to more discriminating buyers. Unfortunately, collectors who buy on price will continue to buy from less careful dealers. The problem as it relates to some of the larger ebay sellers is that less careful sellers can pay more for collections knowing that they can sell everything making their profit on altered or damaged stamps. More competent dealers either have to move to more of a high end market where many stamps are sold with certificates or be successful enough at recognizing hidden value to compete successfully for collections. Training will not overcome a feral business model. In one case, a fairly well known dealer made an extensive study of United States perforations before creating specialist perforation gauges and more accurate perforating machines used to create a substantial percentage of US coils with fake perforations seen on the market today.

It is difficult for new dealers to establish a market presence. Small shows are slowly dying out. Larger shows are becoming more and more expensive. Dealers on ebay are relatively anonymous making it difficult to achieve any name recognition. Having a dedicated web site can help, but requires more of a time and inventory commitment. Finally, low prices are the norm on ebay because many collectors bid low for fear of receiving damaged stamps they don't want and can't return [paraphrase from an article by Jim Kloetzel, editor of the Scott Catalog, in an article in Scott's Monthly Journal a few years ago.]

While sniping at the problem will continue, many have tried and eventually become burned out by the intensity or scope of the task. Only a fraction of the problem is being exposed. As long as the priority stays with dealers who seem to intentionally create bad listings, the effort should have some effect. However, many of the dealers have outlasted previous efforts to curb their activities.

Clark

;

That, among other things you have said, is silly! The people who report things to Stamp Smarter are not "dissatisfied customers", they are concientious shoppers who see a problematic listing. So they take a minute and report it.




Another silly statement. These are not MY rules, these are accepted standards for how one should conduct business in an ethical way. Let's say we use as our "model" the APS Code of Ethics, Internet Code of Ethics, APS Standing Resolutions, plus ebay's own Rules For Listing Stamps? THOSE my friend are the "rules" by which ethical sellers will abide.

And you once again insult folks who care enough to view and report problematic items as "policemen". I honestly think it is YOUR "style" that might need work.......

But seriously, we ought to try our level best here to keep the personal remarks out of the dialogue. All it leads to is a back and forth that goes nowhere and is burdomsome to readers. I vote for a peace treaty.

And to answer your last point, I personally have spoken (by email) to the owner of nystamps and tried to convince him, for example, that he would be far better off and realize far more money if he got his better items certified. I think his response was something like "no time" (I have it somewhere in my records that I carefully keep). I have sent him a copy of the APS Code of Ethics and pointed out the obligation he has as a member to adhere to them. Believe me, I have put a LOT of effort into that seller.

And last, I would like to expand on something cfrphoto just correctly pointed out that many folks who beat the drums trying to make us believe that unethical sellers are really "honest businessmen" rarely consider. And that is that when an unethical dealer buys collections he has a great advantage over the ethical dealers simply because he can pay more than they can knowing full well that the faults that the ethical dealer would describe, resulting in a lower price, will not be disclosed by them since all they do is put up pictures with no descripions and know from experience the stuff will sell for higher prices than if they described the items accurately.

How much would an honest dealer pay for a fake 519, a fake 315, a fake 459, a fake 534B? Answer, NOTHING, but the unethical dealer CAN pay for those fakes as he knows he can sell them for much more. Or fake coils? Or altered stamps? I once was very friendly with a well-known dealer who ran his business this way. When he would attend Greg Manning's big Collections auctions, he would view the lots, generally buy over $100,000. each sale (sometimes a lot more), outpay every dealer in the room, and while he was there he was wined and dined by the House because he was such a valuable customer. Indeed, you can get richer by being unethical, for sure. And he died rich.

For what it's worth, information I've gained from this forum (i.e. SCF in general) has made me more wary of this seller. But I don't collect US and I don't collect NH. The areas I collect are not prone to reperfing, although I'm not saying it's impossible. I've got reference materials that help me to spot outright forgeries. If I see something that looks like it merely could be a flaw, I don't bid. All that being said, if I see something this seller has that I want at a price I'm willing to pay, and I'm reasonably confident it's the real deal, I'm going to still buy. Everything I've learned here has indeed caused me to pass on some lots from this seller. However the caveats applied to this seller basically apply to any seller or any listing that isn't specific enough, and I do the same thing anytime I'm bidding, regardless of the seller.

mdroth,
Thank you for your kind words regarding my health.




I've worked hard to make sure the Reviews were not about the 'seller'. It is true that reviewer will often include a comment about a seller but I usually go back in within a few hours and remove that part of the review. After seeing your comment I revisited this and indeed found about 40 reviews (out of the 1132 recorded) where I had missed the 'seller' reference. These were mostly in the three week period that I was in the hospital and the web site administrative tasks lagged behind. I have removed these references and apologize for not catching them earlier. Thank you for calling it to my attention.

You are certain entitled to your opinion that I am wasting my time. My heart is in the right place and I am simply trying to improve our hobby and offer folks another resource to use. By no means should anyone read single Review and then form a opinion on a seller. The key is to look for trends, gather information from multiple sources. It should be but a single tool in the information tool bag.

Luckily no one has a browser that forces anyone to look at, or use, Stamp Smarter. If folks don't think it has value it will slow fade away. But frankly we receive a lot of feedback claiming that users (and sellers) are very happy with our efforts. The site has also received a fair number of donations to help with the cost of hosting. These all seem to indicate there is support and I will continue to apply my resources to keeping it moving forward.
Thanks again for your feedback,
Don

AGREED!!


OK...not defending NYStamps.....
We can clearly see the listiong practice.

Collections are purchased....
then the items are removed and listed @ ebay
buy what the collection page states.
There are a clearing house....
They move material.

The average collector does not buy a #122, #39 used, etc....

They are more ADVANCED....maybe not more EDUCATED.

NYStamps is doing nothing wrong.
They are listing the items according to ebay listing
policy....it is up to the buyer to decide if accurate.
There are plenty of experts here....

Do you think once....that one has told a seller that
the item listed is actually a better item than the
title states???
Example....US #7/9 as #6/8/8A??
No way....

Given the absolute dearth of other dealers with their own websites with online ordering, I shudder to think of how difficult it would be to buy stamps without ebay. Sure, some sellers who currently have only an ebay presence might set up their own site instead, but probably not many. Most of the "old guard" dealers are so far behind the times that I wonder if they're still using quill pens and sealing wax on their letters.