Are These Perforations Possible?

d307menace - Welcome to SCF, but unfortunately your question is off topic for this thread, so could you start a new thread? This thread is about the selling practices of the seller "nystamps" and an item it offered.

Regarding the various perspectives expressed by Bill, essayk, and others, the bottom line is that "nystamps" is unwilling to perform the work and spend the time that Bill and his "side" in this discussion believe is the obligation of an ethical seller. The other side doesn't believe the seller needs to do that work.

The identical dilemma exists in many other sales contexts, and for decades trademark law has attempted to provide a way out - the certification mark. Whether it is the Better Housekeeping Seal or the JD Power logo, certification marks are supposed to indicate that sellers authorized to display them meet the standards of the certifying agency. There may have been a time when the ASDA mark served this purpose; for some perhaps it still does - to me as a relatively inexperienced buyer (I am age 50, but have been seriously studying and buying stamps only for 3 years), it does not carry that meaning.

In some sense, Stamp Smarter provides foundation information for certification of sellers or dealers. It would be interesting to see Stamp Smarter develop its own certification mark, founded on a set of principles similar to those that Bill and 51studebaker have articulated, and strictly limit the use or display of the mark to those dealers or sellers whom SS has vetted. We can debate what sellers SHOULD do for pages upon pages in this forum, but unless a respected authority says that they HAVE or that they DO, it's the Wild West and sellers can only presume that every stamp is fake until proven otherwise, unless they have taken the time to develop a relationship with a trusted source like Bill, Clark or others here, or spent considerable time here to read everything previously said about "nystamps" and its ilk.

I apologize for being off-topic. SUN Philately is NYstamps, so I thought the post was on topic. Did they "get" me? was my overall question. "How stupid was I?" might be a better way to rephrase the question. Besides, I am new and unable to start my own new topics since I have less than 50 posts. I truly appreciate this forum, and do not wish to cause any trouble...

Sincerely, Dennis

CJ,
In fact Stamp Smarter started the Stamp Smarter Registered Seller Program a few months ago. The criteria is published on the web site; qualified sellers must maintain things like clearly communicated Terms and Conditions, accurate listing descriptions, and quality images of the items offered for sale. We screen accepted sellers via periodic audits of their online presence. Once the seller has becomes a Stamp Smarter Registered seller they can display the following logo in their marketing efforts.


A seller applications form is available on the web site but note that we do not accept everyone. We want to maintain the very highest level of quality sellers. We have about 10 sellers currently qualified; you can view who they are and the audits they have passed on the web site.

Note; I have not promoted this new feature much due to my recent renal failure and cancer treatment. Hopefully over the next few months this program will gain momentum as I am able to spend more time with it. I've got to get past this chemo and radiation first.
Don

If anyone thinks I'm excusing outright fraud due to high volume, they're reading way more into it than what I said. I offered an explanation of their (morally questionable) business practices from my 3rd party perspective, not an excuse. I'd be the first to agree that they need to do a better job of describing their lots; they'd get more business from me if they did.

This seller buys tons of large lots, most of his business is in Asia, an area he knows well and the US listed on ebay is only a small part of his business. I doubt he has the time or inclination to improve in this area so it is unlikely to change. Perhaps future potential bidders should proceed on that basis.

And as long as they think to Google the seller, and find this thread, and read all the way through it, then all will be well.

This has rambled on for 4 pages now; the amusement factor declines after about 2 pages...

One more note - for all, but especially Bill. I have tremendous respect for you Bill - your expertise is unquestioned in my mind. But you seem to be banging your head against a wall - over & over - and it must be starting to hurt!

We started talking about the 122 listing. Seems to have expanded into 519s. Where I had no problem with the 122 listing, the 519 listing is pure fraud and the seller should not be allowed to do this. But not my problem & ebay is certainly not going to police it. But guess what? Neither are you...

The fundamental premise here is flawed. You aim to protect the 'inexperienced' buyer. That is categorically false. These are not inexperienced buyers - far from it. They are very experienced. Ignorant & uneducated about what they're buying - perhaps - but that does not make them inexperienced. If you're spending hundreds - thousands of $ on stamps without understanding what you're buying, well, then you deserve whatever you get.

You're going after the sellers - you want them to hold themselves to some higher 'philatelic' honor code. They could care less about philately. They're dealers. They have but one benchmark - their bank account. Somebody is willing to pay $330 for a fake 519? $500 for a reperfed 122? Where can they (the sellers!) get more!

I'm amazed they haven't sued you yet. They could - for defamation, restraint of trade, or any one of various other charges. Writing it is 'your opinion' is not a valid legal defense. But clearly, you are having no impact - whatsoever - on their sales. So they're likely just laughing - all the way to the bank! If anything, you're helping them - by publicizing their listings.

But let's talk about used 39s. You want to require sellers to state that all used 39s must have certification? As per 'Scott rule'?? What Scott rule? It isn't a rule! It is a note in a catalog! Who made you the stamp police?? But wait - you sell certification services - and you want to require sellers to state that you must have a certification! You're questioning the sellers morals & ethics - but don't you see the inherent moral/ethical conflict here?? I don't believe you have bad intentions here, but everyone must be held to the same standards. These comments are self-serving at best, and ethical conflicts at worst...

New certification marks? You make note of numerous listings of georgetownlaw. He has like 9 consecutive 'dealer of integrity' awards in each listing. Clearly, certification marks are not of much value!

The group with no 'philatelic' honor are the buyers. They buy with no regard. Put the stamps in the album, and we'll have the same discussion 50 years from now. Educating the buyers would help - but looking at the wild bidding, these folks are beyond help. It does seem this thread has uncovered a buyer who now understands - after an expensive lesson. That's one. The key is going after the buyers. Post pictures of questionable stamps & educate the buyers. Those that care. Sadly, it seems that most don't...

Not one word in 4 pages about the true criminals here? Who is forging all these stamps??!? These are the people who should be in jail. While many were done long ago, it seems clear that somewhere out there - now - someone is reperfing 344s at a breakneck pace! Cancelling mint 39s. Trimming 35s. Where are these guys and why isn't anyone complaining about them?? These are the folks that are physically damaging philately...

Mdroth,
Since I am the owner of Stamp Smarter I'd like to respond to your negative comments. First let's get the facts straight. You say that Stamp Smarter is not making an impact. We currently have reviewed 1129 online listings. 447 times (40%) of those listings were improved upon our request once we contacted the seller. This include things like adding better descriptions, correcting misidentified stamps, and removing stamps from sale (mostly fakes). This represents hundreds of thousands of dollars of philatelic transactions that potentially were improved and frustrations avoided. You can say dealers don't care. You say we aren't making an impact. Beyond this being your opinion, do you have any real data to back this position up?

You continue on with saying you are surprised we haven't been sued. It almost sounds like this disappoints you. You state that writing 'your opinion' is not a valid legal defense. You are correct about that if there was any kind of slander or defamation going on. But you are once again incorrect. There are no negative comments about sellers, we review LISTINGS, not sellers. Occasionally a reviewer will include a comment about a seller but once found we will remove them. So please explain to us all how offering an opinion about a listing can be turned into a slander case. Explain how this differs from publishing an review of a meal at a restaurant, a play in the theater district, or a movie. Explain how it differs from you offering your opinion in the post above. What could be possibly illegal about making a post that says "in my opinion this listing contains a misidentified stamp"? Since when does offering your opinion constitute a crime? This is the USA, free speech is kind of important to us.

And finally traffic at Stamp Smarter has been slowly growing since its inception. It currently has several hundred unique visitors per day. One of our objectives has been to educate buyer so they can make better buying decisions. I can't think of any other reason that folks would be visiting other than to use the database and learn something new (it's not like we add a lot of new content beyond the Reviews). By far the most visited page is the 'View All Reviews' which is the most powerful page in the site. Users can sort by Scott number, by seller, etc to glean a better understanding. Additionally we have well over 200 members signed up.

So please explain to us how you have come to the conclusion that Stamp Smarter is having no impact. We are helping many quality sellers improve their listings, the site is seeing many visitors each day. Do you have other metrics or real data you used to come to your opinion? Can I sue you or this forum because you have posted your opinion?

I have a long list of sellers who have thanked us. We have saved them time and money and they understand this. All of this sounds very much like Stamp Smarter IS making a difference.
Don

Mdroth,
Sorry for the double post but I wanted to split this into two. I agree with a few of your points. Those who are actually making the fakes/forgeries need to be sought out and shut down. A lot easier said than done; do you have any ideas on how to do this?

I also concur that some 'certification marks' have failed. For example, The Swedish Tiger awards are almost meaningless when you look at the formula/process being used. Basing something like this on ebay feedback is simply stupid. Feedback is being manipulated and this translates into virtually anyone being able to get a Swedish Tiger Dealer Award. Heck, the site went dead for almost two years yet somehow sellers were still able to claim 'dealer of the Year'.

By the way, I know for a fact that Bill is trying to wind down his business, not grow it. After serving the hobby for 50+ years he is getting close to retiring and I'm sure would love to have more time to go hit little white balls around on a golf course. I know this because I built his web site for him and interface with him quite often. I am constantly suggesting new things he might add to increase sales (like offering gift certificates online) which he promptly turns down with "I'm not looking to increase sales". So to say that he writes reviews suggestion people get certs to increase his sales is simply wrong. He certainly advocates certifications and many times when he contacts sellers he offers to pay for them to get a cert from a third party. I have seen him do this probably 175 times and as of yet not one seller has taken him up on it. They would rather continue to sell a misidentified stamp and not know the truth.

And finally I agree with you that there will always be some buyers who have more money than sense. This is human nature and we have no solutions for changing that beyond making the information available for those who desire to learn more before making a purchase.
Don

Don....
Tell about the new plate # identifier on your site???

Did you do thousands of hours of research?
Why not attribute where the info came from???

mdroth said: "They could care less about philately. They're dealers."

Many dealers DO care about philately, and several of them post here regularly. They don't define their level of "success" (or happiness, or importance) solely in financial terms.

But your "logo" is earned because "Don said so"???

Kevin,
The plate number information came mostly from The Post Office publication "Postage Stamps of the United States" which is not copyrighted, it is public domain. Nice try. I gave the reason why the Swedish Tiger Award is meaning less; the formula is based upon ebay feedback. Everyone knows the ebay feedback has lost much of it meaning. Accounts are bought and sold with 'Top Rating' status. As you well know, some buyers can play games with feedback, if I don't like you its easy to simply buy a few cheaper items from you and leave negative feedback, basically trashing your rating. (its child's play to setup a few new byers accounts.)

And your snide remark, "because Don said so" is also incorrect. If you bothered to read the information in either on post or on the site regarding the Stamp Smarter Registered Seller program you would know what it would take to qualify, including proactive periodic audits.

Kevin, everyone knows that you do not like me. If you have legitimate beef contact me privately and we can resolve it. Taking public shots that do not hold water is not serving anyone. I have refrained from making negative comments about you or your listings in this forum. For example, I strongly disagree with your practice or not offering a image of the backs of stamps. But this 'breaks no rules' on ebay and I see no value in arguing publically with you over it. It is how you choose to sell, so be it. So unless you have a specific bone to pick with me, lets move on.
Don


Edit: I will add that my wife and I spend literally hundreds of hours entering the plate number data, and this does not count the time I spend developing and building the SQL database or front end. All for a totally free tool, there are no banner ads or other commercial aspects to it. Yet I come under attack from people???
Nice. A real motivator to help philately. And we wonder why there are not more new feature and the why the hobby finds it hard to find new hobbyists?

Bill and Don,
No one in this conversation is supporting the things you are holding up for criticism, but you don't seem to recognize that. To have a fruitful discussion of ethical questions it is essential that you disconnect your feelings from your logic.

Anyone who knows me will know that I am not going to support or defend immoral behavior. So if it looks like I am, keep looking, because I haven't come to the end of the logic yet. By the same token, some of the "correctives" you two want to provide are at least as immoral as the behavior you decry, albeit in another way.

Moral outrage is the most common basis for repression. Consider Don's comment above.

The operant word in his first sentence is "should" and with it he imagines that he has seized the moral high ground. So his second sentence lists actions he considers necessary for legitimate volume selling. It is prescriptive, and in context it is presumably requisite. (He just made a law.) His third sentence is an expression of feeling that expresses a generalized fear he has (and wants the reader to share). It is without substance or defense, but does set a tone of apprehension.

I think it is safe to say that everyone in this conversation wants to help those who cannot help themselves. The trick is to do that without becoming repressive, and that is where the rhetoric of Bill and Don is failing. Use of expressions like "no one can convince me that..." reflect heart talk while the mind is on break.

To discuss matters of ethics, it is sometimes necessary to put the heart on hold while the mind is allowed to work. Otherwise you go in circles shouting to no avail.

Bill, Don - please stop the rhetoric of repression so we can work this through to a reasonable conclusion. When you propose a "corrective" ask yourself whether that preserves "liberty and justice for ALL" (including the miscreants you so despise).

If I allow myself to jump ahead in my own logic, I will come out at a place Don has already mentioned, namely buyer education. This website (SCF) is doing some of that. More will always be needed, but we also have to accept that given the kinds of real market structures we are struggling with, even more will never be enough. The harder pill to swallow here is that we don't matter as much as we would like to think we do. And for some people that is positively galling.

mdroth - wrong on almost every count. The best dealers do care. Before shooting next time, aim first. Also, please check out the http://www.scads.org web site. Although dated, many of the dealers mentioned continue with "business as usual". One dealer mentioned above was really proactive. Back in the days of the ebay Users Stamp Club, he blocked the most frequent posters from bidding on his "stuff". Since he claims to be a lawyer, I won't mention his name here explicitly. Some dealers are quite litigious. A few years ago, one web site for reporting questionable ebay offerings was forced to move off shore to Uruguay to avoid harassment.

As the stamp marketplace has moved on-line transparency has increased. In addition to being able to find vast quantities of formerly hidden inventory, questionable claims or descriptions are now much more apparent. It is no longer necessary to go to Philadelphia to get fleeced at an auction. The big change is that vast reservoirs of formerly unsalable stamps are now available on the Internet. Entrepreneurs continue to struggle to find ways to sell all of the accumulated junk, even if it means cutting a few corners.

Clark