Despite Old Certs, Wondering If This "17-P1" Is Actually 44-P3

Given the visual impression, and a very questionable left vertical
line frame, the untrained eye would say 17 long before 17P1...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/19079742250...rms=gh1g%3DI190797422503.N8.S1.M1382.R2.TR19

Wonder why the PFC isn't shown? Sure doesn't look like india paper. Only other possibility is 36BP5 (on stamp paper) but he's describing it as a P1 so I assume the PFC identifys it that way(?). I will try to find out. Interesting thread..........

Thanks, Bill... I hadn't considered the 36BP5... but considering
the impression, it doesn't look like it could be a proof at all...
I'm thinking 17, but of course, you know much better than I...

P.S. The left vertical line frame (to my untrained eye) looks like
it was done by hand...

Randall

Lol, financing available.

At least it's 'real' ...

Look at this fake... and I'd bet the cert is fake, too...
this seller is the one that makes their own certs... so
I'm surprised they didn't make one of their own...

Read the commentary on the cert... whomever allegedly submitted
this stamp for a cert threw everything at it but the kitchen sink...
and the word GENUINE appears on the cert... somebody's either blind
(or) in somebody's pocket... (IMHO)



http://www.ebay.com/itm/17-XF-APPEA...em3aa04a05cb

disi - I don't understand your chagrin? The cert looks perfectly fine to me. In fact, with that date on it, I was probably one of the examiners. Further, are you saying that this seller makes fake certs? He claims to be both an APS and ASDA member. So what is the basis of your accusations?

Hi, Bill... thanks for chiming back in...

In all due respect, perhaps it could be just a bad scan, distorting
the image, but this stamp looks horrible... the right eye is wrong,
the mouth is wrong... and the commentary on the cert doesn't say a
whole lot of nice things about it..

The seller, Tropicalcollectibles, is KNOWN to make their own certs...

In fact, there was a discussion about them, originally initiated by
Kevin LaFrance as the OP, in July of last year, which you, yourself
had participated in, as well as Don, and quite a bit by Jay Smith...

https://goscf.com/t/38262&whichpage...collectibles

This was the original listing, however their images including their
cert have long since been removed...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/95-5-034-F-...047675.l2557

It was a direct result of this discussion that I stopped watching
Tropical's listings...

Randall

I must have missed the beginning of this thread, but the PFC is right next to the image part and final verdict of the APEX cert. Neither shows the complete cert; they have been folded to show the key data and set side by side. [Edit this out: I cannot agree with Randall that Langs makes his own certs. Bill is many things, but that is not one of his faults. But let us look carefully at what is shown and what is claimed.


I think it is noteworthy that neither cert is willing to make the claim that Langs does that this is a P1. In fact all that either will admit is that it is a proof. APEX identifies it specifically with #17, but the PFC is non-committal even on that. I too have my doubts about it being on India paper. I also note that the frameline is closed at all points with no gaps.

So what exactly is it? How about a plate proof on stamp paper? Since the frame line is complete, how about 44P5?

In this case the stamp comes with two certs, but they do not support what the seller is claiming. Bill L. thinks it's a die proof, and so it shall be in his stock. Where I trust it will remain for a long time.

[Forgive the edit, but I had not noticed that Randall was referring to Tropical, not Langs. Mea culpa!]

Yes, but this is not one of them. So unless the cert is a forgery...

Randall,

Maybe the fact that it's been cleaned and the cancel removed and rebacked and had margins added is why it doesn't look all crisp and nice?

essay2... sorry for the confusion... the cert comments were regarding
the second scan, which was Tropical Collectibles in the second scan
(not) Langs...

disi - your post specifically said "I bet the cert is fake too" which implies that you were accusing them of making a fake APS Cert. Them making certs for their own material is a separate issue - and that's what was mostly discussed in the original thread. Now I really don't know this seller from Adam, so I'm not sticking up for them except to say that Ido not believe they make fake certs!

PS I have not had the curtousy of a response from Mr Langs to my email asking him to send me an image of the PFC this item supposedly has........

I'm not an APS member, but I would request a member to verify cert #
209656... which, (in spite of the stated flaws) states the stamp as
"GENUINE"... (genuine what?) If I was the one whom sent it in, I would
expect a cert back stating "NO OPINION"...

This stamp looks as fake as a $3 bill, and I would be highly surprised
if any sober expertizer would state it's genuine...

I think the opinion is 100% correct and it's just a poor scan.

For comparison, the scan below was sent to me by a collector (made with an inexpensive all-in-one scanner & default settings.) It exhibits some of the same characteristics -- poor detail in the engraved portion (note facial features, lettering, etc.) odd sharpening artifacts, odd contrast artifacts, etc. The stamp is 100% genuine, but you wouldn't know that looking at the scan.



disi123, when you say "I would be highly surprised if any sober expertizer would state it's genuine...," that doesn't allow for any possibility that it's just a poor scan - IMO, that's the "overwhelmingly likely" (99.99%+) explanation.

Both certificates are now shown on the ebay site.

Glenn - Where? If you are reffering to the item that started this thread, tht link stil only shows the APS Cert.?