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Before Or After; What Do You Think?

 
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1942 Posts
Posted 09/23/2015   3:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add essayk to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have always liked the looks of a bright red cancel on a pale blue or ultramarine stamp. So, when I saw this cover it got my attention. Then when I saw the cornercard I just had to have it.




My question for you is this: is there anything about this cover that would indicate whether this usage occured before or after the 1c 2c Post Office Departmental was issued and available?
[Oops]


I asked this question at the Frajola website and got a wonderful reply from a top flight expert in the departmental stamps, Alan Campbell. If you go there to check it out don't spill the beans here until I respond to my own question. I want to give everyone a chance to think it through or speculate or whatever it is they would do with this
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Edited by essayk - 09/23/2015 3:38 pm

Pillar Of The Community
United States
628 Posts
Posted 09/23/2015   3:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jim6092252 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
maybe it was not really official mail
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Valued Member
United States
344 Posts
Posted 09/23/2015   6:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kollectorkurt to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Being little more than a kindergarden kollector in this arena, I would guess that the reason that US postage is used in lieu of Official stamps has something to do with the mode of delivery. With the DC local CDS and the Carrier mark on the back, perhaps it never left the DC post office under the control of the POD, going directly to the private carrier? As for before/after, again it is the markings. At some point, we have figured out precise start/end dates for one or both of the date stamps and can determine the year from those markings.

Now off to Frajola's site to find out how ignorant I am!
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2423 Posts
Posted 09/23/2015   9:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
To be honest, I'm not sure I understand the question. But, this envelope doesn't have the penalty warning. That would place it before the first part of 1877.
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Edited by KGB - 09/23/2015 9:42 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2423 Posts
Posted 09/23/2015   9:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Incidentally, the Wormsley Hotel is famous in American Reconstruction-Era history.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1942 Posts
Posted 09/24/2015   4:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think as many have answered as intend to, so now I will share with you what I learned from Alan Campbell. Here is the question precisely as I expressed it on the Frajola website:

"Is there anything about the style or color of the markings, the rate, or anything else that would allow us to say whether this usage preceded the usage of officials by the Post Office Department? "



Quote:
DC Local Cover


For this usage to have preceded the introduction of official stamps (July 1, 1873), it would have to be Nov. 30, (1872), which is too early for Continental stamps. My guess is that this cover was posted on Nov. 30, 1873. In 1874, the "LOCAL" at the bottom of the CDS disappears, but it was still there in 1873. Red canceling ink was standard for local mail at the main DC post office from 1873-1875. Also, for official mail from the free frank period, the corner card was typically in the upper right, so that the free frank would appear where one would normally expect a stamp. All the earliest official stamp usages from July, 1873 occur on obsolete free frank envelopes, where the corner card is in the upper right. Gradually, new envelopes were ordered, with the corner card moving to the upper left, so as not to be obscured by the new stamps. So, why wasn't a 2˘ Post Office used on this cover? The office of the 3rd Assistant Postmaster General dealt with philatelic matters - e.g. it handled orders for the special printings of 1875. In some rare instances, if a collector requested or ordered something, and sent in his own postage or cash, regular postage stamps would be used in lieu of official stamps to mail the response. Incidentally, Professor Jules Marcou, an early associate of Louis Agassiz, was a paleontologist at Harvard's Museum of Comparative Zoology. In 1853-84, he was the first geologist to cross the Rocky Mountains.



So, how did you do? Did you find his response to be convincing?


It is truly impressive to me that he was able to give so much detail about a cover with no year date. When I show it, I will now have something to say. That is helpful. Thanks again, Alan.

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
628 Posts
Posted 09/24/2015   4:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jim6092252 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If you were knowledgable in when certain cancels were used you could date the year without an actual date on it. Another thing to learn.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2423 Posts
Posted 09/24/2015   5:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Very cool!
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1847 Posts
Posted 09/24/2015   6:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If the first part of the response is right (and I have no doubt), then the only possible improvement would be to correct the last sentence:


Quote:
In 1853-84, he was the first geologist stamp collector to cross the Rocky Mountains.
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