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Dimensional Control And Modeling Of Flat-Plate Stamps.

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Posted 10/22/2025   07:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Am Teck to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Revcollector

I may ask you, as a philatelist, to re-examine the tables in relation to the current assumptions and provide your opinion.
The application of reverse engineering processes allows for the precise identification and characterization of the material.
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Edited by Am Teck - 10/22/2025 07:51 am
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Posted 10/22/2025   08:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That has long been possible without this. All it takes is some real interest and a bit of reading, along with looking at lots and lots of stamps.
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Posted 10/22/2025   12:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Partime to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Doesn't reverse engineering involve a detailed knowledge of the manufacturing techniques used at that time? I think Revcollector and others on this forum understand those techniques and the variables involved. Does Am Teck?

I do have to say that I may be less intelligent having read these three topics than if I just did about anything else.
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Posted 10/23/2025   3:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Tiger Dude to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You can't model something that you can't go back in time and measure. Everything you do in the model is a guess as to what really mattered and more specifically what actually happened back then. Sure you can create a model, but it's like creating a hand drawing of something someone told you about.

Don't let me stop you from your accomplishments, but the model will not do what you think it will. Certainly no output from such a model would be accurate.
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Posted 10/23/2025   10:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Am Teck, your significant figures in measurement do not account for the conditions 100+ years ago in the manufacturing of the paper stock, the paper moisture content at time of printing nor the atmospheric moisture content (humidity) in the press room during production.

What you are trying to create was done long ago with paper more in line of what was used during printing and not 2025. But for fun, I did add a 2022 paper to quote.

While I take my hat off to you for trying. You will not achieve your goal.

By the way have you watched any of the videos available of the flat plate printing process? A good deal of the process is not science, it is art.


https://www.polygongroup.com/en-US/...-production/ <<<Discusses variables in manufacturing over which the OP has no means to determine; which affect wet/dry printing responses and the effect of humidity of the end product paper.

https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/L...cular445.pdf <<< Produces the quote below as well as discusses many other aspects of finished paper in response to humidity.



Quote:
The changes in length end width of paper, although numerically small, are very important in some uses of paper. Weber and Snyder of this Bureau have shown that the percentage of expansion is proportional to the change in moisture content.
From citation--C. G. Weber and L. W. Snyder, Reactions of lithographic papers to variations in humidity and temperature. BS J. Res. 12, 53 (1934) RP633.


https://www.versoco.com/ww/wcm/conn...1f2d-mOncjZY <<<Discussing the moisture variables from a modern point of view which cannot be determined for the paper used 115+/- years ago.


Quote:
....All paper encountered in normal situations contains some moisture since it is composed of cellulose fibers. This normal moisture content will generally
range between 2% and 10% depending on the type of paper, its past moisture history and the atmospheric conditions to which it is exposed. When subjected to extreme conditions the moisture content of a paper may range from as low as 0.5% to as high as 13%. Many basic properties of paper are greatly affected by its moisture content. Paper dimensions,
flatness, conductivity, strength and fold are among the more significant properties influenced by its moisture content. These paper properties can be very critical to the proper performance of paper and therefore, effective control of paper moisture level
and moisture uniformity is essential for efficient printing and converting operations.
(emphasis added)


Quote:
PAPER MOISTURE CONTENT AND RELATIVE HUMIDITY: DEFINITIONS

Moisture content of paper is the percentage of the total paper weight, which is moisture. Moisture content of paper is determined by weighing a paper sample and, after oven drying , weighing it again. The difference in the two weights is calculated and expressed as a percentage of the original weight. It is the level of moisture in a particular paper that influences stability of the critical properties of dimensions, flatness, conductivity and strength of that paper.

Paper, since it is hygroscopic, will exchange moisture with its environment until equilibrium with that environment is achieved. The moisture level of paper is routinely referred to in relation to the moisture level of the environment with which the paper is in equilibrium....
(emphasis added)


Quote:
CRITICAL PAPER PROPERTIES ARE ALTERED AS MOISTURE CONTENT OF PAPER CHANGES
The most significant paper properties affected by change in moisture level or the development of a non-uniform moisture level within the paper, as
stated earlier, are: dimensions, flatness, conductivity, strength and fold.
(emphasis added)


Quote:
MOISTURE AND PAPER DIMENSIONS
Paper dimensions increase with higher moisture content and decrease with lower moisture content. Individual cellulose fibers will change in dimension as their moisture content changes. As the moisture content of the cellulose fiber increases, the fiber will increase in dimension and as the moisture content of the fiber decreases, the fiber will decrease in dimension. As the cellulose fibers change in dimension due to changing moisture content, the diameter (width} of the individual fibers will change 2-5 times more than their length (their width changes significantly more than their length}. These individual fiber dimension changes communicate themselves to the sheet as a whole and depending on the reactivity of each particular paper, the paper will change in dimension.
(emphasis added)

In summary, the unknown production parameters or both the paper and stamps printed on said paper are unknown and thus the post production effects of moisture (humidity) on the stamp parer and printed image dimensions is unpredictable.
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Posted 10/24/2025   11:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Am Teck to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Tiger Dude

Much obliged for your thoughtful review. Revcollector also raised a similar point in his most recent reply, and I would like to extend my acknowledgment to him as well. I appreciate your concern regarding the limitations inherent in retrospective modelling, particularly when direct measurement of historical conditions is no longer feasible. It is indeed true that any reconstruction of past processes must grapple with uncertainty and rely on proxies and inferential reasoning.

In fact, much of modern and conservation science operates within such constraints, often employing reverse engineering to better understand how systems once functioned. The modelling framework I have developed does not purport to offer absolute certainty regarding every historical variable. As I move towards practical implementation, I remain fully aware of the challenges involved and the question of whether such an approach will prove feasible.

But, from the technical philatelic perspective, the modelling has yielded a wealth of valuable data, most notably regarding anisotropic hygroexpansion coefficients, irreversible drying set behavior (whose strength, incidentally, exceeded my expectations), and validated mass transport equations….

I welcome continued dialogue and critique, as it is through such exchanges that the rigour and robustness of the work are ultimately enhanced.
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Posted 10/24/2025   2:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Am Teck to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Parcelpostguy, much obliged for your review,


Modern Precision

The fundamental premise underlying the concerns appears to be that unknown historical parameters render the research objectives unattainable. This perspective conflates two distinct engineering challenges: retrospective reconstruction of historical conditions versus prospective development of controlled manufacturing processes based on established materials science principles.
The research explicitly addresses this distinction in its stated objective: "to transform this empirical historical process into a quantifiable manufacturing process on the basis of engineering physics and Statistical Process Control (SPC)." The goal is not to recreate the exact conditions of 1908–1923 press rooms, but to understand the underlying physical mechanisms that governed dimensional stability and to implement modern controls that ensure predictable outcomes.

Proxy Materials and Validation

The concerns correctly identify that historical paper specifications, moisture content at printing, and atmospheric conditions are unknown variables. The research methodology specifically addresses this uncertainty through a two pronged approach that transforms these unknowns from obstacles into manageable process variables.
Proxy Material Strategy: The research employs the empirically validated Considine & Bobalek LP40 gummed paper coefficients (#945;CD #8776; 97.8×10#8315;#8310;/%RH; #945;MD #8776; 41.3×10#8315;#8310;/%RH) as material proxies. This approach is scientifically sound because these coefficients represent the final product condition, gummed paper, which is the relevant state for both dimensional compensation calculations and long-term archival behaviour. The selection of gummed coefficients accounts for the adhesive's contribution to overall hygroexpansion, avoiding the systematic under-compensation that would result from using ungummed paper parameters.
Validation Framework: Crucially, the methodology mandates empirical process validation through calibration testing on actual production stock. As specified in Section 6.6, "the shrinkage constants must be empirically validated for the specific production paper stock used." This closed-loop feedback system allows real-time optimisation of process parameters and die compensation factors based on measured dimensional response of the specific materials and conditions employed.

Technical Response to Variability Concern

The sources cited in the concerns, Weber & Snyder (1934), VersoCo, and Polygon Group, actually provide strong corroboration for the research methodology rather than contradicting it.
Linear Proportionality Validation: Weber & Snyder's finding that "the percentage of expansion is proportional to the change in moisture content" directly validates the linear hygroexpansion model employed. The research utilises this proportional relationship through both #916;MC and #916;RH frameworks, with the #916;RH approach selected for its direct applicability to published strain data and elimination of moisture content to relative humidity conversion uncertainties.

Anisotropic Response Confirmation: The VersoCo documentation confirms that individual cellulose fibres change dimension with moisture content, with "diameter (width) of the individual fibres" changing "2–5 times more than their length." This precisely corroborates the quantified anisotropic response where Cross Direction sensitivity exceeds Machine Direction sensitivity by factors of 2.4 to 5, forming the foundation for orientation dependent compensation strategies.

Moisture Sensitivity Acknowledgement: The Polygon Group reference regarding manufacturing variables affecting wet/dry printing responses reinforces rather than undermines the methodology. The research explicitly addresses these concerns through comprehensive environmental controls, including pre-printing conditioning (24 hours to equilibrium moisture content), controlled printing environments (22–24°C ± 1°C, 45–55%RH ± 3%), and gravimetric moisture content verification to ±0.1% tolerance.

Every major physical assumption and every principal process prescription in the research is supported by the classical, experimentally derived findings compiled in the National Bureau of Standards C455 review by Carson.
1. Hygroscopic mechanism and magnitude
2. Anisotropy (MD vs CD) and directional sensitivity
3. Hysteresis, history dependence and justification for conditioning
4. Use of gummed LP40 proxy and ARH (#916;RH) model choice
5. Quantitative scale of predicted dimensional changes
6. Drying kinetics, irreversible drying set and temperature limits
7. Ink chemistry and process hold times as the practical constraint
8. Measurement, and tolerancing requirements
9. Orientation management / practical mitigation
10. Archival hygroscopic response and long term drift


Engineering Solutions

The transformation from historical "art" to modern science is achieved through systematic application of Statistical Process Control principles that directly address the variability concerns raised.
Environmental Control Implementation: Modern replication eliminates much of the ambient variability that affected historical production through strict environmental specifications. The controlled drying protocol using laminar airflow (0.3–0.7 m/s) at temperatures below 30°C prevents excessive drying set while ensuring uniform moisture removal, addressing the non-uniform gradients that caused dimensional variability in historical stacked-sheet drying.
Measurement and Feedback Systems: The methodology incorporates precision dimensional measurement (±0.005 mm accuracy) across 10–20 positions per sheet, with statistical tracking of mean and standard deviation for both width and height. Control limits of ±0.025 mm from target dimensions provide quantitative criteria for process adjustment, replacing subjective empirical assessment with objective measurement.
Orientation Management Protocol: Recognition that the largest historical registration errors arose from applying Machine Direction compensation to Cross Direction orientations (or vice versa) led to the development of strict orientation management protocols. The calculated dimensional error from orientation misalignment (approximately 0.054 mm) significantly exceeds the process control tolerance, making this a critical process discipline requirement rather than a modelling limitation.

Beyond Manufacturing Uncertainty

The predictive extreme analysis extends the methodology beyond immediate manufacturing concerns to address century-scale archival behaviour. This analysis is independent of unknown historical production parameters because it begins from the measurable post-production contracted baseline and models reversible hygroexpansion responses to specified environmental scenarios.
The five degradation scenarios quantify dimensional and chemical responses under extreme conditions, providing evidence-based guidance for archival storage requirements. The finding that Cross Direction sensitivity remains approximately 2.8 times greater than Machine Direction sensitivity throughout the artefact's lifespan confirms the persistence of anisotropic behaviour and validates long-term dimensional predictions based on established hygroexpansion coefficients.

Fundamental Engineering Challenge

The core engineering question is not whether historical manufacturing parameters can be precisely reconstructed, but whether the dimensional instabilities that characterised historical production can be systematically controlled through predictive compensation and process management.
The evidence demonstrates that the dominant material responses anisotropic hygroexpansion (#916;L = L#8320; × #945; × #916;RH), irreversible drying set, and chemical curing kinetics are governed by fundamental physical principles that transcend specific manufacturing period. The linear relationship between strain and moisture change, confirmed by the concerned own citations, provides the theoretical foundation for predictive compensation through die oversizing by the inverse shrinkage factor: D_die* = D_target × (1 + #949;).

In Summary

The Weber & Snyder proportionality relationship, the VersoCo anisotropic response data, the Polygon Group manufacturing variability documentation and the National Bureau of Standards C455 review by Carson, collectively validate the physical principles underlying the methodology.

Simulation preconceived in the exhaustive analysis, the attached in the forum are summaries. (ref. pic below)
• In every tested dampening case the final dried stamp dimensions are smaller than the die in both Scenario A and Scenario B.
• The Cross Direction (CD) produces larger shrinkage than the Machine Direction (MD) for the same dampening level, so orientation matters for final size control.
• Heavier dampening (larger #916;RH) increases E and therefore reduces final dried dimensions further.


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Edited by Am Teck - 10/24/2025 2:33 pm
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Posted 10/24/2025   5:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Partime to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry, but this thread is going nowhere, similar to the other two from the same OP. If you want to try again with a post with an actual Goal, then please do.

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