Colombia Forgery?

Came across a little envelope (marked forgeries)in a bulk lot I bought lot from an auction house many years ago and put them in the "too hard basket", hopefully someone may know something about any of the three various stamps I have posted on this forum.
Sydneyboy

Scan at 1200 dpi for more detail. Your end result should look something of this size.

Amazing scan Stallzer. It makes it look like a completely different stamp!

Sydneyboy. Apart from what was written on the envelope, what makes you think this and the others you've posted are forgeries? Can't trust what some unknown person wrote many years ago. Have you been able to do more research into them?

Hi Stallzer, my collecting interests are not really in this area, so have little idea or the reference material to research the items, I realize you may not trust another s opinion but perhaps there are specialists in this area who belong to this forum, perhaps in the case of the Czechoslovakia stamp posted a collector has identified the overprint as a forgery as he has a example to compare with.

Kindest Regards

sydneyboy

Hi Sydneyboy

The overprint on the 1 or 2 I have seen seemed to be pretty solid and did not look like the one you have.

Scott 2012
Unwatermarked  Perf. 14
                        Mint      Used   
C1  2c carmine rose     $3,500    $1,700   
C1a 2c carmine rose     $7,250    $4,250  
   Arabic numerals

Based on the above I do not think yours is "real". The date figures have Arabic 1's (cannot see the figure on the year and assumed). After counting the strip of three and the pairs that leaves 11 singles (mint and used) and, therefore, the variety is rare. Secondly the horizontal perforations do not seem to have the "cut" appearance.

Jerry B

Thanks JennyB, This is an amazing forum, I glad I came across it to share ideas. Also to meet people like you who are passionate about stamps and willing to share knowledge.

Kindest Regards

Sydneyboy

SYDNEYBOY--------I couldn't find anything about the above stamp.But I looked thru the article by John N. Myer about Colombia stamps forged by Raoul Ch.de Thuin ,who was the famous overprint forger.My guess is that ,and its only a guess was the stamp with overprint was already expensive and rare . So maybe forgers who never saw the real overprint just did it on the fly ,because as mentioned above the stamp without over print is just a cheap stamp and the overprint inking weak .
If your ever going to list your copy for sale on line ,let me know ,its something I would bid on ....thanks for showing it .

Hi
Sydneyboy
I looked in another book:
Los Primeros Cincuenta Años de Correo Aereo en Colombia
(The First Fifty Years of Air Mail in Colombia)
Eugenio Gebauer and Jairo Londoño T.
Copyright 1975

The two 1's in the date are really with 1 and without | serifs.

However the quote from the Gebaur book is correct.

floortrader
I have Myer's book on the Numeral Issues. I was unaware of any other. What is the book you are referring to?

P.S. Since I answered first I want dibs on bidding

Jerry B

Sydneyboy, sorry but your overprint is a forgery. The postmark appears to be on top of the overprint, which indicates the postmark is also fake.

I just got back in town. I'll try to post a pic of a genuine overprint tomorrow, so you can see what the genuine overprint looks like.

Hi floortrader and others, Thanks for your comments, I have no problem that this is a forgery I don't collect columbia, just wanted to bring this stamp to the forum as a point of interest. I will once I'm a established member either list it or put it up for tender as its of little use to me.

Thanks all for your comments and interest, I will advise you floortrader befor I dispose of it.
Regards
sydneyboy

SYDNEYBOY------Don't forget Jerry ,let him know also if it goes up for bid .We can fight over it and each lose our first born in a blood bath ...lol....right Jerry !

JERRY ----I have the book THE YUCATAN AFFAIR by the APS. That has a chapter on Colombia forgeries.

Hi floortrader

Alright. I think I have another book by Myers but right now I cannot find either book.

This stamp would just add another to the Colombian forgeries I have.


We don't have kids. Would one or two cats do?

Jerry B

Great stuff from a letter by the forger, Raoul de Thuin
"Raoul Ch. de Thuin was a philatelic forger in the mid 20th century. His work is described in "The Yucatan Affair: The Work Of Raoul Ch. de Thuin, Philatelic Counterfeiter", compiled by a specialist editorial staff, an American Philatelic Society handbook. issued in 1974.

Raoul de Thuin was born in Belgium, but he moved to Mexico where he became naturalized Mexican. He had his own stamp shop (Maya Shop), but also operated under different names: 'Gilda Rivero Mendozo', 'Thelma Salazaar', 'R.G.Knapen', 'Belgian Export company' and 'French Philatelic Agency' (source 'Stamp Collecting, February 3rd 1967, p 1007). He made many forgeries (mainly forged overprints on genuine stamps, turning them into rarities) of many countries, but he seems to have specialized in South America and specially Mexico. He also faked letters and guarantee marks as well. Though well documented, I did not see many forgeries of de Thuin (maybe because the detection of forged overprints is one of the most difficult tasks in forgery detection).

Most of his forgeries and equipment were sold to the American Philatelic Society (APS) in 1967. The APS then compiled the book 'The Yucatan Affair'. De Thuin then still continued selling forgeries from Ecuador, as can be concluded from the three letters from him to a stamp collector in 1973 (these letters were sold recently (2002) on E-bay, I have put '***' whenever I was not able to read the contents of the letter clearly):
Letter 1:

Raoul de Thuin
Sucursal de Correos URDESA
Guayaquil-ECUADOR Guayaquil. nov. 15-1973


I have duly received two kind letters from you and a cheque for
dollars $24.20. Thanks!
I call your attention you sent too much as, if my record is correct
our account is as follows:
Salvador, a fake (excellent) of Scott No75, priced $200 for $ 12.-
Three errors of the wheel set (double or triple) at $1.50... $ 4.50
Postage..................................................... $ 1.oo
Amount...... $ 17.50
Having received $24.20, I credit you for the difference and I own to
you $6.70
I examinated pages of old Gibbons you sent, being astonished how poor
is the listing of Salvador. Of course the most interestant are stamps,
postage and official, issued between i867 and i905.

Scott is listing along these years, postage stamps: 1120 and official
stamps 309........... Gibbons along these same years is only listing 252
postage stamps and 122 official.. Something unbelievable ....
Wheel set (Gibbons166-176) is a very interesting set, All small values
exist double and sometime triple. The 1 centavo exist in red and several
values exist with blue surcharge.
It is long years ago I got a true wheel having been used for these
surcharge and these I sent where made with the true wheel 40 years late.
On about set of Pedro Jose Escalon (i906) I will look in my stock if
be possible find something for you. This set exist perforated and unper-
perforated. The 2 cent. exist with double frame and several values exist
unperforated between stamps. In the same issue surcharged, them exist
several errors in surcharged, (1909).
Answering to thepart of your letter asking if I have rare old stamps
on covers, yes I have as the followings: excellent fakes on covers:
Roman States 50 bajocchi and 1 scudo - some old Switzerland and Germany,
bisected old English colonies and Mexico. All more or less at $10 each....
I have too excellent fakes of rare Buenos Aires 1858 and 1859 at $6-
each single or at $10- on covers. Same price mint or used.. It exist in
this set three tete-beche: the 2 reales of 1858 and three reales of 1858
and too the 2 reales indigo of i859. These tete-beche are counted as two stamps..."

-*It is a forgery and would like it as a reference point ,here is a copy of the real stamp it was for sale at Cherrystone Stamp Auctions back in Sept 9-10 of 2014

Note thread was bumped: the original poster has not logging into the forum since 2013.
Don