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Czechoslovak Stamps Printed On Diestamp Print Presses  
 

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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4109 Posts
Posted 05/24/2014   8:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Czechoslovakia Scott 1748







Czechoslovakia Scott 1953





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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4109 Posts
Posted 05/24/2014   9:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I had the idea this stamp is from a TD 6 press where 3 colours are Giori direct recess and 3 colours are Giori indirect recess! No photogravure at all.


When I posted that scan of France Scott 1115 http://goscf.com/t/9106&whichpage=23 I only had
an old 1968 Michel Europa handy where it was described
as combination print, steel engraving and photogravure.



Meanwhile Scott does say it was engraved.




Looking at it again, I tend to agree with you Rein.

There is no photogravure printing evident.

But just look at the misdirected blobs of colour on the faces
and the red mess on the horse's head.
What accounts for that ?
Is it because as you stated before "the inking cylinders that are out of register " ?

Didn't the TD 6 press print up to 6 colours on
one single pass ?




Question: Which are the 3 colours direct recess and the
3 colours indirect recess ?

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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
522 Posts
Posted 05/25/2014   10:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Martin,

background blue, yellow and red are indirect recess! The red mess is indirect too!

The 6 colours in one, single pass! Two cylinders involved.

groetjes, Rein
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
508 Posts
Posted 05/26/2014   05:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
lithograving - Thank you for the fine images of the FDC engravings. Most appreciated.

The coats of arms of the towns of Mikulov and Žlutice on the FDCs were designed and engraved by the graphic artist and engraver Josef Herčík (1922 - 1999), the creator of the respective stamps.

The FDCs accompanying the stamps marking the 50th anniversary of the Czechoslovak Hunting Association were designed by the Slovak artist Jozef Baláž (1923 - 2006), who was the designer of the stamps (note his characteristic style), the detailed line-drawings of Baláž's designs were executed by the engraver Miloš Ondráček (b. 1936), and the engravings of Ondráček's line-drawings were carried out by the engraver Jaroslav Goldschmied (1890 - 1977).

Miloš Ondráček was also the designer and engraver of the stamps and the respective FDCs featuring details of the Hero and Leander tapestries executed at the Mortlake Tapestry Works in the early 1630s and now kept in Bratislava.

Both the stamp marking the centenary of the Paris Commune and the matching FDC were designed by the artist Josef Liesler (1912 - 2005) and engraved by Jindra Schmidt (1897 -1984).
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Edited by florian - 05/26/2014 05:25 am
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4109 Posts
Posted 05/26/2014   2:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Florian. Do you also collect these FDC and do you
have them all?
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
508 Posts
Posted 05/27/2014   03:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
lithograving - No, I don't, not even many of those I listed above. As in everything, I always pick and choose faithful to my credo: avoid having too much of any good thing.

By the way, the creators of the FDCs are not anonymous. Their names always appeared in the Ministry of Communications Gazette and were reprinted in the FILATELIE periodical. People in charge of new issues and collectors cared about such things.
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
508 Posts
Posted 12/09/2014   07:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bonjour, Papy24,

As promised in my post of Yesterday 10:15 am on the Please help describe Sc. USA # 1248 'camaieu' Giori printing thread, I am adding some more info, which might be of interest to you, on the printing of Czechoslovakian stamps on diestamp print presses by Poštovní tiskárna cenin Praha = Postal Printing House of Securities, Inc.

A foto of one of the diestamp presses in question, bearing the manufacturer's nameplate saying WAITE & SAVILLE LTD., can be seen on the following site http://www.ptcpraha.cz/en/technolog...o-sheet.html (Please press the Ctrl key together with the + key to read some of the inscription.)

I draw on what Mr. Miroslav Vondřich, a retired stamp printer like you, published in 8 instalments in the FILATELIE monthly ten years ago.

Instalment 5 in issue 9/2004 (see pages 40-41 of http://knihovna.filaso.cz/filatelie_2004_09.pdf ) deals with this particular type of printing, called Ocelotisk z plochých desek in Czech = Flat Plate Intaglio. The subsections of it include info on the trasfer roll process and the printing plate (Moletování a tisková deska), the printing (Tisk), and perforation (Perforace).

Among a lot of technicalities that I would be at a loss how to translate into English, Mr. Vondřich says that the engraver's work on the detailed drawing of the design - six times the size of the stamp - makes great demands on him as he has to count on the deployment of the colours, their overlapping and blending. His grooves on the die are then deeper than those meant for rotary presses. The first inks have to seep into the paper to allow the final ink to leave a relief on them. Make-ready in the form of underlay, fastened on the counterpressure steel plate, is used to obtain a clean impression with each ink.

Instalment 6 in issue 11/2004 (see pages 35-36 of http://knihovna.filaso.cz/filatelie_2004_11.pdf ) continues the discussion of Flat Plate Intaglio with subsections dealing with more details of the perforation process, inspection (Třídění), paper (Papír), FDCs (Obálky dne vydání), printing presses (Tiskové stroje), plate flaws (Deskové vady), and diagram of a printing sheet for flat plate intaglio printing in combination with offset printing.

Mr. Vondřich notes that the engravings on FDCs are always printed straight from the engraver dies that have been chromium-plated without having undergone the transfer roll process.

Instalment 7 in issue 12/2004 (see pages 35-36 of http://knihovna.filaso.cz/filatelie_2004_12.pdf ) concludes the discussion of flat plate intaglio printing in combination with offset printing.

So much so far. If particularly interested in some further details, please let me know. I will do my best to help.

Regards,

Florián
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Edited by florian - 12/10/2014 03:55 am
Valued Member
France
66 Posts
Posted 12/09/2014   1:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Papy24 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Florian,

Thank you very much. The most interesting would be to see the printing machine for understand better how it works.
Have you any pictures?
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
508 Posts
Posted 12/10/2014   06:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bonjour, Papy24,

Being a mere lifelong amateur student of finely designed, finely engraved and finely printed select stamps from all over the world (but collecting no expensive rarities), I have never been to a stamp printing works, so I have not got any pictures of stamp printing machines except those that have appeared in the philatelic press on rather rare occasions.

Mr. Vondřich said in Installment 6, Subsection Tiskové stroje (Printing machines) that it was Waite (& Saville) ones that were prevailingly being used for printing stamps, a Heim press was kept in reserve because it was not in ideal condition to print stamps any longer and could not be fixed as its supplier had gone out of business a few years before.

A photo (not very good one, I am afraid to say) of a Waite & Saville press in operation was published on p. 132 of The Czechoslovak Specialist (see http://index.csphilately.org/1968_09_Nov.pdf ) plus this text on the following page: "The planographic steel print is carried out on Waite-Saville sheet-fed printing machines. In case of multicolor stamps, there must be a special plate for each color. The paper is put into the press by hand. The perforation is made by means of a separate device."

Two photos of an old Johnston diestamp print press in operation were published on p. 178 of the FILATELIE bi-monthly in 1978 (see http://knihovna.filaso.cz/filatelie_1978_06.pdf ). This press was used for printing miniature sheets and stamps in sheetlets between the years 1937 and 1959 (side by side with earlier Waite-&-Savilles and Heims introduced after 1945).

A photo of a Fr. Heim & Co., Offenbach a/M machine in operation was shown on pp. 1 - 2 of FILATELIE 1/1999 (see http://knihovna.filaso.cz/filatelie_1999_01.pdf ).
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Edited by florian - 12/10/2014 06:22 am
Valued Member
France
66 Posts
Posted 12/10/2014   11:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Papy24 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Florian,

Thanks for the links.

It is true, the pictures are not very good. But it is very interesting for me to make difference between all printing machines even if I don't know how they work, but I imagine.

Thanks again.
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
508 Posts
Posted 12/11/2014   06:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As for some recent flat plate intaglio stamp products of the Postal Printing House of Securities, Inc., Prague for the Czech Republic, see my earier post of 04/29/2013 on page 111 in the Collecting by Engraver thread. ( http://goscf.com/t/9106&whichpage=111 )

For some of those printed by the same house for Slovakia, see my post of 04/30/2013 on page 112 in the same thread. ( http://goscf.com/t/9106&whichpage=112 )

For some of those printed by a combination of offset and flat plate intaglio, see my post of 05/032013 on page 113 in there.( http://goscf.com/t/9106&whichpage=113 )
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Edited by florian - 12/11/2014 06:19 am
Valued Member
France
66 Posts
Posted 12/11/2014   1:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Papy24 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Florian,

These stamps are beautiful and are not made as the french stamps. I can't say how they are printed neither the press used to make them. It is not the same way than TD6 Chambon.

I have a little idea how the showed printing presses are used and worked, but it is not enough to say and explain.
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
508 Posts
Posted 12/12/2014   05:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bonjour, Papy24,

The problems with paper variability as to dimensions due to variations in atmospheric temperature and humidity during the printing process that you refer to in your post of Yesterday 1:58 pm in the French Government Printer, Multicoloured Engraved Stamps thread also applies to the flat plate intaglio stamp printing carried out by the Postal Printing House of Securities, Inc., Prague.

Mr. Vondřich notes that these factors pose serious problems for printers as a change in these data exercises considerable influence on the variability of the paper as to its dimensions, which has an immediate effect on whether the printing is in proper register or not.

Besides, it is advisable for the whole print run to be printed on one and the same press and by one and the same team (as each of usually up to 5 and exceptionally even 6 colours printed requires at least 12-hour drying time, the printing is done part by part until the whole quantity to be issued is printed). The paper is fed into the press by hand so as to reach fixed stops ensuring proper register (see pictures on pp. 1 and 2 in http://knihovna.filaso.cz/filatelie_1999_01.pdf , the picture on p. 1 showing a team of two, the feeder putting sheets of paper to be printed on into the press, the other taking the printed sheets from her).

Each feeder has their own particular way of feeding sheets into the press (although this is difficult to see at first sight). Besides the process requires a sense of rhythm and a feeling for the accurate positioning of the sheets touching the stops. Whenever, for any reasons such as illness, it is not possible for one and the same feeder to put all of the colours of a print run into the press, there are always problems with proper register, says Mr Vondřich.
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Edited by florian - 12/12/2014 06:14 am
Valued Member
France
66 Posts
Posted 12/12/2014   07:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Papy24 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Florian,

When the paper is fed into the press by hand, it is very difficult to have a good register with the successive colors. It was my job in typography in my early years. It is the difficulty of the profession.

But now, it is finished with the new automatic printing machines either flat or rotative. They are drived by computer.
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
508 Posts
Posted 12/13/2014   10:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The wheels of progress do not always turn in the propitious direction. However I am no laudator temporis acti who would prefer to live 60, 120 or 175 years back - when the Penny Black was about to appear.

E.g., as for the delights of enjoying fine stamps, I immensely appreciate the present-day fantastic opportunity to view on the Internet the enlarged images of finely designed, engraved and printed examples of these.

Yet I still prefer the engraved stamps of remarkable facture, say, those of French provenance issued, say, in the 1960s, manifesting the excellent craftsmanship of their makers, often both designers and engravers by profession, to those being nowadays produced by means of computer programmes, which no longer achieve the high standards of the former products.

Nevertheless, the issuing of engraved stamps, even of those produced by modern methods, is being gradually abandoned by postal administrations either because of higher costs or because collectors no longer find them as fine as they used to be.

Consequently, the printing works, even those in the Czech Republic, are no longer investing into that particular type of presses, their suppliers stop producing the special machines, their spare parts, the special inks, the quality papers needed, etc. and, in the end, the master engravers lack commissions for their dying art.

Fortunately, what was once issued in the glory days of the engraved stamp all the world over is still available quite cheaply for collectors to select from and continue enjoying the exquisite skills of the designer, the engraver and, last but not least, the printer.

This is made possible because faltering general collectors of single countries have become aware of their inability to keep pace with the ever-swelling flood of expensive commercialized new issues, too often produced on the cheap, which makes them, in turn, disband their collections and, in disillusionment, put them on the market.

The magical world of fine stamps, however, still preserves their appeal for lovers of the beautiful. Collecting stamps for joy, not for investment, I make my choices remembering that too much of a good thing spoils the enjoyment of anything.

Once I used to acquire several duplicates of certain fine Czechoslovakian stamps and FDCs of particular beauty hoping to exchange them when I retired so as to continue my delectation but now both the postage on letters abroad and the face values of new issues have soared making exchanges as well as purchases of the latter prohibitive.

On the other hand, stamps issued abroad between the 1960s and the 1980s, and even beyond, are on offer here at fractions of the price once asked for them, just wait and find what really suits you. This is a good thing offsetting the other odds.

Happily, one of my grandsons has always had a stamp collection of his own, continuing in my footsteps, even if, at his age, he now quite naturally concentrates his attention on other things. From time to time, appreciating the beauty of the facture of a stamp under a magnifying glass as I had taught him, he advises me against getting rid of this or that piece. Well, some prospects of having a successor!
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Edited by florian - 12/13/2014 10:43 am
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