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Argentina / Buenos Aires 1858 Issue. Are They Legit Or Forgeries?

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Valued Member

Canada
69 Posts
Posted 07/11/2016   10:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add KD` to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I came across a set of these 5 stamps (Argentina/Buenos Aires Scott #1-5). The catalogue value for the stamps, if genuine, is $12,300. However, they are footnoted in Scott with "Counterfeits of Nos. 1-8 are plentiful". There is also a footnote that 1, 2, 3 and 7 were also reprinted on a different paper, but all 5 appear to be on the same paper type.

Is there an easy way to identify whether I have (or at least likely have) counterfeits or genuine stamps? Given that I came across these in a large auction lot, it could be a "lucky find", but I don't want to spend a few hundred dollars in expertizing fees only to find out that they're forgeries and more or less worthless.

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Edited by KD` - 07/11/2016 11:01 pm

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Canada
6513 Posts
Posted 07/11/2016   11:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jamesw to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are several threads here on the forum about these. I'd bet forgery, but have a read and decide for yourself.

http://goscf.com/t/6475
http://goscf.com/t/27021&SearchTerms=buenos,aires
http://goscf.com/t/20830&SearchTerms=buenos,aires
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United States
468 Posts
Posted 07/11/2016   11:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
All very common forgeries. Paper is different, but more importantly the genuine didn't have enough room between the stamps to have those margins. I have a few full sheets of these forgeries, IIRC.
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Canada
69 Posts
Posted 07/12/2016   9:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KD` to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks everyone for the quick responses. My eyes lit up when I first looked them up, until I saw the forgery footnote. It's strange - when I did a quick search last night I didn't see anything. But a couple of the links given here did appear when I searched again today. Of course, spelling "aires" correctly helps. I'll have to be more awake next time I search. Given their apparent prevalence, I'm assuming they're more or less worthless :(
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United States
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Posted 07/12/2016   10:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know if they are forgeries or reprints. Here is a good read on the different forgeries of these stamps.



http://stampforgeries.com/album-wee...uenos-aires/
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United States
4774 Posts
Posted 07/13/2016   07:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
These poorly made fakes were made for the approval business in the early 1960's . They sold for about 10 cents a set thru approvals from Zenith Stamps .
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Denmark
430 Posts
Posted 07/13/2016   4:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ClassicalStamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Depending on which 'Barquitos' stamp, there are up to 17 different types of forgeries. In addition, there are various sub-types and reprints...

For more information on these stamps I recommend "Barquitos of Buenos Aires - Forgeries & Reprints by Andres E. Gazzolo"

Easy solution: Always assume forgery unless accompanied by a certificate.

As most collectors will never see a genuine specimen, I have added one below for your convenience (sadly not in my own collection )

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Edited by ClassicalStamps - 07/13/2016 4:29 pm
Valued Member
United Kingdom
11 Posts
Posted 12/19/2019   5:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Roland56 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The poor quality of the printing cannot leave anyone in doubt! Michael Aldred
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Posted 12/20/2019   1:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As a complete novice (scil., about two years ago) I found one of these in a small batch of Spanish stamps. With Scott's warning in mind, I studied several web sites devoted to this series and still honestly thought I might have a genuine item. I sent it off to the APS expertizing service. It came right back with one word: "forgery." Fortunately, if the stamp is a fake, APS refunds most of the fee. Still, it cost me $20. Since then I've learned that, when genuine, a stamp such as this is so very valuable because it's so extremely rare. And, by the time it gets to me, any older stamp will have passed through the hands of many more experienced and knowledgeable collectors. So I no longer pay much attention to catalogue values. The stamps that I love are mostly low value anyway.
Further thought on expertizers: I didn't mind that my stamp was a forgery, but I wanted to know how the expert made that determination. What exactly had led to that conclusion, since none of the websites had tipped me off? If you have to pay for the opinion that it's a fake, shouldn't the expert give at least an idea why it is?
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Australia
1463 Posts
Posted 12/20/2019   2:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
how the expert made that determination. What exactly had led to that conclusion, since none of the websites had tipped me off? If you have to pay for the opinion that it's a fake, shouldn't the expert give at least an idea why it is?


You're paying for years, perhaps decades, of experience, and the expertiser's time of course. A J Sefi wrote an award winning paper in the 1920s on forgeries and fakes and I'd wager he wasn't the first to put pen to paper on this subject.

Websites have their place, but aren't any good for things like, for example, paper thickness. You have to handle the stamps themselves to gain the knowledge.
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Edited by Bobby De La Rue - 12/20/2019 2:41 pm
Valued Member
United States
207 Posts
Posted 12/20/2019   7:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Expertizers will likely have some genuine examples they can use for comparison. For those that don't have the advantage of owning originals (including me) there is literature. Here are three references; they should all be available from the APS, and on-line if you are a member (APS) or subscriber (Linn's).

The Barquitos stamps of Buenos Aires, American Philatelist, Dec 2013
The Barquitos of Buenos Aires, Linn's, Oct 16, 2018
The Serrane Guide, Vol 2. Originally published 1929, American Philatelist reprinted the segment on Argentina in Dec 1992.
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Valued Member
United States
468 Posts
Posted 12/21/2019   01:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've got genuine examples of several of the Barquitos and the biggest difference by far between a genuine and a forgery that has been trimmed to simulate the tight spacing is the paper. The forgeries are on a heavier machine made, relatively modern paper. The genuine on thinner paper matching what you'd expect to find in the 1850s. The difference is quite obvious, though tougher to describe. :)
You can pick up a genuine for under $100 in the most common value and most common shade. I got most of mine from Guillermo Jalil in Buenos Aires over the years. I think I have a couple on my website.
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Posted 01/14/2020   6:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add r.cebrian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
And this pair?

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United States
468 Posts
Posted 01/14/2020   7:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Spacing looks close, color looks too dark, but might be the scan. It looks a little too perfect to me. I'm thinking it might the Sperati forgery? Certainly not genuine, since there is only one known genuine. :)
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United States
4774 Posts
Posted 01/14/2020   8:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I paid 15 cents for my set ,when I was 12 or 13 years old as part of the approvals that came with my 100 stamps for 10 cents . So I know they are real because no stamp company would cheat a kid .
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United States
4774 Posts
Posted 01/14/2020   8:41 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

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