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Austria Scott 481 Or 499 (Screen Or No Screen)

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Valued Member

United States
131 Posts
Posted 02/01/2017   12:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add chaulkdust to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I've been puzzled by these for a while. I have many sets so I'd like to be able to put the debate to rest (in my own mind).
I have nothing to compare them against, so here is picture of the lower colored part. Is it a 481 or 499? I think it's (no screen) making it a 491? Any opinions would be appreciated.


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Canada
4736 Posts
Posted 02/01/2017   1:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's hard to tell from your photo whether it's photo or engraved.
A scan would be better.

Here is a thread that might help you.

http://goscf.com/t/16798&whichpage=5
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Valued Member
United States
131 Posts
Posted 02/01/2017   1:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chaulkdust to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here are a few more images. Yes that thread is more appropriate - Thank You.







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United States
131 Posts
Posted 02/01/2017   2:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chaulkdust to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I placed a reply in that thread to take a look at this thread. I hope that was the appropriate thing to do?
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Canada
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Posted 02/01/2017   3:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Your second pair of pics are a bit better.

There appears to be screening on the background of the 5S value
indicator which would make it a Scott 481, therefore engraved.

Scott is wrong when they claim both 481 and 499 are printed
via photogravure.

Michel and* Austria Netto Katalog states that what Scott calls 481
was printed via line engraving not photogravure.

* error corrected



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Edited by lithograving - 02/01/2017 9:10 pm
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United Kingdom
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Posted 02/01/2017   6:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Lithograving,

We seem to be reading Michel differently.

This is what I see in my old 1998/99 edition:

Sc #481 = Mi 770I uses Rastertiefdruck = Photogravure

This used flat plates and shows screening.

Sc #499 = Mi 770II uses Rotationstiefdruck = Rotogravure

This used cylinders and doesn't show screening.
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Nigel
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Canada
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Posted 02/01/2017   7:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Nigelc, you are correct I should not have included
Michel but the Austria Netto Katalog ÷sterreich Specialkatalog
does state that the first printing of the Schilling values were
by Linientiefdruck(StTdr) gerasterter Grund
Line engraved ( Recess)screened background.





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Posted 02/01/2017   8:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Lithograving for clarifying the Michel/Netto point.

However, it's left me scratching my head a bit.

"Rakeltiefdruck" is a new term to me for rotogravure but that's the easy bit.

What is happening though when a stamp is printed using line engraving with a photographic screen?

I guess this is some form of photogravure but I don't understand what Netto means by this.
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Nigel
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Posted 02/01/2017   8:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree Nigel it's not 100% clear to me either.

There was some discussion about this issue on a German
speaking forum where SCF member Galeoptix/Rein took part.

http://www.briefmarken-forum.com/t5...-ank-767-774

Mentioned there is Linientiefdruck" geštzter Kupfertiefdruck (Plattendruck)
which would mean they were printed on etched copper flat plates.

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Valued Member
United States
131 Posts
Posted 02/01/2017   11:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chaulkdust to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a copy of a screened item from a previous thread. The difference is actually in the inking not the printing method?

The thread is at
http://goscf.com/t/16798&whichpage=5
on psge 4-5



The difference shows up best in the colored areas as to the screening affect?
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Edited by chaulkdust - 02/01/2017 11:19 pm
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Netherlands
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Posted 02/03/2017   04:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
All mentioned stamps show screens but the difference is in the usage of ink and machinery.


Thick viscous inks combined with heavy plates/cylinders [both could be used!] that had to pull out the ink from the recessed lines or dots under enormous pressure [with some ink still left on the plates/cylinder wiped off by a doctor blade (Rakel) or a cloth reel]

OR

thin fluid inks combined with light cylinders that would flood the paper reels hadn't it beeen for the doctor blade [Rakel] that wiped off the superfluous ink.

The differences are not so easy to spot. The inked dots in the latter process have the tendency to wash out and form a continuum, whereas in the former process the dots rather can be seen as separate dots;



ALL terms used here to name the 2 different processes are confusing! ;)

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Netherlands
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Posted 02/03/2017   05:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply




Both in recess [thick ink/heavy machinery]... Etching or engraving is NOT decisive!
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Valued Member
United States
131 Posts
Posted 02/03/2017   08:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chaulkdust to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So given the insight so far. What do you think my stamp is (top 3 images)? Is it 481 or 499? I'd like to put the puzzle to rest. I still lean to 499 since the screening/dot effect seems not to show up in the solid inked areas (Top/bottom banners). So if you had to stick this in your stock bok where would you place it (it needs a home).

Thanks
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Netherlands
940 Posts
Posted 02/03/2017   11:37 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The top part may put you on the wrong foot as it looks like the version of thick ink/heavy machinery (StTdr in Michel] but the scan is not convincing enough:



Certainly the version of thin ink/light cylinders (RaTdr in Michel]:



Still any doubt??? This is photogravure [gerastertes Rakeltiefdruck]!
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Edited by Galeoptix - 02/03/2017 11:42 am
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Netherlands
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Posted 02/03/2017   11:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What Michel says that no screen is visible [Kein Raster sichtbar] is WRONG!!

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Netherlands
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Posted 02/03/2017   11:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Nigel,

Rotogravure was a patented name for photogravure [thin ink/light cylinder] around 1910!

The NRM [Nederlandsche Rotogravure Maatschappij] could produce both screened and unscreened photogravure. The unscreened process was a great secret then and was used for stamps of the Vatican [1929], South Africa [pictorials 1929-1948] and Mexico [1936-1937], all stamps printed on Goebel rotaries!
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