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1c 1857 Plate 11 Stamps

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Posted 01/14/2019   3:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add txstamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Plate 11 of the 1c stamp of 1857-1861 was made towards the end of 1860, by Toppan, Carpenter & Co.

The earliest known use, per Neinken, is January 12, 1861.

It marked a return to the use of a Three-Relief transfer roll, designated Roll #5, by Neinken.

The reliefs are designated: T, A and B.
The T relief was a Type II, while the A and B reliefs were Type IIIA. As such, the plate is known to contain Ty II and IIIA stamps. The stamps, being printed in 1861, are only known perforated, and, thus are Scott #20 (Ty II), and #22 (Ty IIIA).

Like the prior Three-relief rolls, the T relief was used for the top row only, the B relief for the bottom row, and the A and B reliefs alternated rows in the body of the plate. The above was somewhat presumed-knowledge from the Neinken book, since, as of that book's publication in 1971, very little of Plate 11 had been reconstructed.

It was a standard 200 subject plate divided into two 100 subject panes by a centerline.

Plate 12 was made about the same time as Plate 11, and stamps from both plates are readily identified from the so-called secret mark, or cancellation-dot at about 9 o'clock inside the colorless oval. This was applied to the die itself prior to making the transfer rolls for these plates.

The Neinken book makes the assertion that, in spite of the same number of reliefs on the transfer roll (3), as the earlier plates - 1, 2 and 3, that there are no guide dots observed in the body of Plate 11. Based upon the plate 1, 2 and 3 configurations, one would expect a guide dot at the lower right of Plate 11 B reliefs in the body of the plate. As of the Neinken book, none had been found. It could be that they simply got burnished away during plate finishing, or the sample size at that time wasn't large enough.

When one opens the Neinken book to Plate 11, one of the first things that jumps out, is that there just aren't very many positions identified. Material from this plate is relatively scarce, and if you are trying to collect it by plate position, it is legitimately rare.

It would be an understatement to say that there were quality issues with this plate. Many stamps have a moderate to heavy ink film on the impressions. Double transfers are quite prevalent, and at least one Triple transfer position is known. Some of the multiple transfers encountered have their subsequent entries so skewed from the original entry, that it creates some stamps that look pretty weird. Of course, these are eminently collectible.
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Posted 01/14/2019   3:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here are the Neinken drawings of the Plate 11 reliefs.







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Posted 01/14/2019   3:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here is an A relief straddle centerline Plate 11 stamp for reference, and viewing pleasure.



This is a Type IIIA, broken at top, Scott #22.

I invite members to post your plate 11 material here in this thread.

Siegel sale 1006, from 2011, contained Jerry Wagshal's holding of Plate 11 material. This was the so-called "motherlode" of such.

https://siegelauctions.com/sales.php?sale_no=1006

After this sale, with the material dispersed, there has been some organized activity trying to make progress on further plate reconstruction. It is ongoing. Any material posted here could well help in this process.
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Posted 01/14/2019   8:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a Relief A example from Plate 11, ex-Caspary (Siegel Sale 1051 Lot 1416), on folded letter. Cropped close-up as well.




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Posted 01/15/2019   12:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's a gorgeous stamp, cover and use.

July 1861, clearly.

I have a single #33 on a cover, ex-Caspary - nothing special about the usage. Its an otherwise fairly run of the mill cover, but its clean, the CDS is neat, and the stamp is four pretty good margins and very well centered (remember its a #33). Sometimes provenance just means that a particular person had a particular item for awhile, other times, it pretty much guarantees you that you are going to have something spectacular, even if its an otherwise mundane item. Yours isn't at all mundane, as the Philadelphia usage you have there is very nice.
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Posted 01/15/2019   5:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have but one stamp from plate 11, pos 5 I believe but don't know if it's L or R side.


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Posted 01/17/2019   10:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's a nice top row T relief.

One thing to mention about most of the Neinken Plate 11 drawings - the majority are just drawings of stamps. Usually the positions aren't identified, and, instead the drawings are, simply, numbered. I believe you are referring to drawing/mat #5, and not position 5.

Some progress has been made on narrowing down some of these stamps to real plate positions. At some point, I would expect to see a Chronicle article or similar, from the people working on this. They will see your scan, and make use of it. Thanks.
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Posted 01/18/2019   2:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As an example of the adventures on Plate 11, here is the well-known, and rare, Triple Transfer. Position as yet Unknown.

I included the Neinken drawing of it, so you can see what a mess it is.



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Posted 01/18/2019   4:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a Plate 11 Relief B double transfer on cover. J. Wagshal at one time maintained that it was a triple transfer.

This cover was once owned by our very own txstamp. I posted it in an earlier thread, at which time tx noted that there is a story behind it ...





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Posted 01/18/2019   5:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
dudley, thanks for posting that. That cover indeed, is an old friend, that I got back in the 1980's and held for almost 20 years. It was always a favorite, due to the 1c stamp on it.

To better illustrate the variety, it is mat #20 from Plate 11, in Neinken, which I'll include here -



As a plater, the more crazy looking the variety, the more fun it is. This one definitely qualifies.

As you can see from the drawing, in the bottom margin towards the right, there is an orphaned piece of an ornament just there by itself. This is from a prior, partially erased entry. This position is at least a double transfer. A big one.

Now for the story, or fond memory that this brings back to me. I was in New York City many years ago, and a number of friends and I decided to get together and talk stamps one night. Most of these people were pretty serious platers of both the 1c and 3c 1851-61 issue stamps, or serious collectors thereof. Most were in our 1c & 3c study group at the time. So consider the audience. I very much enjoyed this particular stamp/cover that dudley posted, as a plater, for reasons I've explained, so I pulled it out and put it on the table for everyone to be just amazed by. Remember this is Plate 11 material - its not common. So, the person next to me looked at it, and pulled his copy out. The person next to him, looked at it, and pulled his copy out. At least one other person had a copy. There were no less than 4 copies of this variety around the table at once. It is possible that that represented "all" the known copies at the time. If not, it was very close. We all looked at each other and had a pretty big laugh. After all, this stamp had suddenly become "really" common. I mean, everyone had one.

If you think about it, it kind of illustrates my earlier point about what is desirable to a plater. A crazy variety. There were some serious platers there, and we obviously all had the same tastes and interests, so I guess its not really surprising that we'd all look for something like that.

That was a very fun night, and this cover will always remind me of that.
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Posted 03/18/2019   11:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think that I have found and plated a stamp from plate 11 that I just received. It has a torn off corner at the upper left but appears to be the only small (lol) flaw. I think it is position 17R11, type IIIA, Scott #22. I have compared it to a Siegel copy that was part of a block of 4 including the two top row stamps above it. That was how this this position was originally plated. I have made a mark-up at 1200dpi and 3 supporting images comparing it to the Siegel copy. I scaled up and pieced in the upper right portion to verify 7th column positioning. It looks correct to me. I purchased this stamp as a damaged #20 for $10 plus postage. Opinions are welcome.




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Edited by jaxom100 - 03/19/2019 01:12 am
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Posted 03/19/2019   5:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have this Type II? stamp and am baffled by the paper and my inability to plate it. With the marks I highlighted it ought not be so hard. The paper is different too, almost like normal writing paper, not as thick as note pad paper but unlike regular stamp paper, thinner and stiffer. I'm not well schooled in proofs so can't be of much help about that angle. What do you make of this one?


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Posted 03/19/2019   5:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Going to be on the road for a while so I'm adding anything I can think of to help.

The entire stamp front has a blue hue to it. The back looks white with absolutely no sigh of any gum.
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Posted 03/19/2019   5:31 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Post a scan of the back if you can. You mentioned the paper!

I will try to plate. Might be a Plate 3 stamp if you are lucky.
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Posted 03/19/2019   6:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have it as 17L2. That horizontal blur of color is a printing anomaly of some sort, which often appear to bedevil us poor platers.
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Posted 03/19/2019   6:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Back to Plate 11, I think jaxom nailed it with 17R11. It's a rare thing to be able to plate a single Plate 11 stamp.
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