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New South Wales 1850-1851 Two Pence, Which Plate? Expertised?

 
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Valued Member
Germany
200 Posts
Posted 05/08/2021   04:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add LordInVader to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello all Stamp Masters,

Im curious as to the identity of this stamp.
First off: Does it look authentic?
I tend to think it should be Plate V, because of the pearl in the fan-shaped ornament. But im not sure whether this is right.
Next Question: This stamp seems to have been expertised by one "J. SCHL".
Do you have any information or reference for him? Is he well known?

Thanks!




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Australia
33518 Posts
Posted 05/08/2021   05:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not necessarily an "expertiser's mark"
Could be...
A joke,
an owner's mark
A forgery

Stamp, looks like a very bad imitation to me
Caveat: These are highly specialised.

Called "The Sydney Views"
Vignette represents sydney's attributes, merchandise, receiving Convicts at Sydney Cove
"Sic Fortis Etruria crevit"
= Thus the mighty Etruria (Rome) grew (Virgil)

Only image of the 2d I have (Not Mine)
The 2d came in varieties Vert of Horiz background shading

Printing carried out by Charles Kay, on a primitive Hand Press.

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Edited by rod222 - 05/08/2021 05:09 am
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Posted 05/08/2021   05:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Beware of the "Honey Trap" when buying these.

This purchaser lost a cool $400


Basic design examples of the Tuppenny Blue.
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Australia
1869 Posts
Posted 05/08/2021   05:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi LordInVader,

The stamp is 100% genuine. Plate 5, position 4 (ie: top row, 4th stamp from the left). The cancellation is most likely a Sydney dumb obliterator.

The expertiser's mark is Julius Schlesinger, a Berlin dealer who lived from 1858 to 1920. While there are doubts over his reliability, in this case all is OK.

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Edited by Bobby De La Rue - 05/08/2021 05:32 am
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Posted 05/08/2021   05:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Great news Bobby,
where may we see images of the plates please?
Bibliography?
(Great to see a genuine up close)
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Edited by rod222 - 05/08/2021 05:36 am
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Posted 05/08/2021   05:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Rod,

In this case I've used Hutson's image, but images of plate reconstructions can also be found in Basset-Hull.

As you said, specialised stuff!!
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Posted 05/08/2021   05:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Bobby,

I think I have Basset Hull.
I'll have to dig that out.

I was surprised to see that genuine, I knew the engravings were poor,
but that one is a cracker.

I have a mimeographed print of the Forgeries by Jeffreys by a Journalist, and the forged Pmks.
Although it mentioned only the one penny, I thought this may have been one of his.

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Posted 05/08/2021   05:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Manwood (lot 4258) had a position 4. I will scan it in the morning and post it up

Mods: Can we get this thread moved into the Australia section please?
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Edited by Bobby De La Rue - 05/08/2021 06:07 am
Valued Member
Germany
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Posted 05/08/2021   07:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LordInVader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello one and all,

Thank you for the information provided, and the heads up on the eBay fakes.
I got this one for around $42.
Since this is Plate V, this would make it a Scott #8, right?
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Posted 05/08/2021   08:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes Sc#8
Greyish Wove Paper
Pearl in the Fan shaped ornament.

Suggestion: Check Stanley Gibbons for minor varieties?
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Edited by rod222 - 05/08/2021 08:39 am
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Posted 05/08/2021   08:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Just for Interest,
"SCHOOLBOY COLLECTION"
According to this returned $5,000
(mint unused 1d and 2d blue)

Prestige auction Saturday 14th August 2010
click to expand image
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Edited by rod222 - 05/08/2021 08:37 am
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Posted 05/08/2021   09:36 am  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Plate 5, position 4 (ie: top row, 4th stamp from the left).


Bobby De La Rue, have you considered position 13 (second row, 1st stamp)? It looks pretty good.
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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
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Posted 05/08/2021   7:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Would have to agree fairdnkumstamps. The benefits of daylight and hi res scans!!


Plate V Position 4



Plate V Position 13


Yes LordInVader, the stamp is Scott #8
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Germany
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Posted 05/10/2021   03:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LordInVader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Just curious:
How do you tell the position of the plate?
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Australia
474 Posts
Posted 05/10/2021   04:36 am  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Each of the stamps were engraved individually on the copper plate, so there are differences that enable the observer to distinguish the position on the plate.

A reference image of plated stamps (such as in G J Hutson's book mentioned by Bobby De La Rue above) allows the philatelist to determine which position corresponds to the stamp in question.

The 'plates' for a particular denomination were in fact all the same plate, re-engraved when the soft copper wore down.
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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
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