Pow Mail Hand Stamp - Info Required

I have just found this cover



Does any one know anything about the klarge hand stamp on the front. I have not seen it before and sofar cannot find anything on line.

I also do not understand the red number and date at the bottom. The date is 5 months later than the post mark.

Any info much appreciated.

AQ

Hi AQ

Are there any other markings on the back?

Switzerland was a 'non belligerent' country during WW II and mail from both sides often were sent there for distribution purposes.

It was not uncommon for mail to take a few months during the war. The marking in red 'might' be a censor marking??

Hope this helped some?

Bujutsu

The International Red Cross in Geneva Switzerland served as a re-distribution point between individual on both sides of the warring powers.

The marking "PRISONER OF WAR MAIL" and it's German equivalent "KRIEGSGEFANGENENPOST" were requirements on POW mail sent to the Red Cross, as that allowed them to direct the mail to the correct department upon receipt.

I would speculate that this marking was added by the Canadian Censorship office which inspected the letter and reclosed the letter with the two labels. It is very likely that this envelope did not contain a traditional letter, but one of the specialized form letters which were provided to send correspondence to a POW.

The red "1662 * 10NOV1942" I believe is a control marking applied by the Red Cross upon receipt. The "1662" probably identified a group of correspondence received on that date. The date is either when it was finally received in Geneva, or possibly when the bag containing the mail was finally opened for processing.

This letter was sent surface (not air) mail, probably by ship via New York then to Lisbon, Portugal, then by train to Paris and then again by train onwards to Geneva. Five months is not an unreasonable transit time under the wartime conditions.

The Red Cross would open the envelope, then using the information on the enclosure, redirect it to the correct destination Camp, which would typically be the destination on the enclosure, but they had a massive POW and internee and civilian database which they used to maintain addresses, and if the POW had been moved since the sender's address, they had the ability to redirect it to the proper destination.

Although we don't see the reverse, I doubt the cover and contents were censored again by the Germans in Paris en-route to Geneva, but more likely by censors responsible for reviewing POW mail while between Geneva and the final destination POW Camp.

A quick examination of eBay located several additional envelopes to the Red Cross with the similar date marking. The following example is from Germany to Geneva, which helps support the the idea that it was applied to the envelope in Geneva, the only common location between the two covers.



This not my direct area of expertise, so perhaps someone else can offer a more precise explanation.

There are no markings on the reverse or else I would have shown them . I should have mentioned that - sorry.

mml1942
I am not sure that you are right in saying
as none of the other mail I have or have seen from Canada to the Red Cross has that marking. If you have any reference to that requirement I would be interested in seeing it. Perhaps it was a requirement for mail from Germay or Occupied countries.

In May 1942 mail to Switzerland did not have to pass through German held territory as the route would probably have been from New York to Lisbon then Spain and Vichy France to Switzerland. You do not usually see Germany censor markings in this period on mail from Canada to Switzerland.

What search did you use in Ebay to uncover that cover you show ??. I have not been able to find anything like it but your cover does very strongly sugget or even prove that it is a Red Cross marking as that is the only thing in common between th etwo examples. Can you post a link to that lot. I did find a couple of covers from Germany to the Red Cross whic did not have thta marking.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/393953332769

AQ.

The linked UK eBay cover did not need the handstamp marking as the German word "KRIEGSGEFANGENENPOST" was already typed on to the cover unlike yours in the OP. Not sure the destination of the linked cover, thus the English "Prisoner of War Mail" endorsement may have not been needed as an addition.

Edited to add: "KRIEGSGEFANGENENPOST"

Parcelpostguy

It was not the KFG marking I was refering to in my reply but the red number and date at the bottom. This seems to be from the Red Cross but I have never seen this before on a letter from Canada..

AQ

Yes, the red number and date are not on the linked cover..I have seen both with and without the number/date but cannot reference the country or countries involved. Of course there are folks who may have answers and I am contacting one of them.

Anthraquinone:

Quote:
What search did you use in Ebay to uncover that cover you show ??. I have not been able to find anything like it but your cover does very strongly sugget or even prove that it is a Red Cross marking as that is the only thing in common between th etwo examples. Can you post a link to that lot.


I used eBay Search with "geneva censor pow". I think there were only one or two other covers with this style date marking that were found by this search. Neither were from Canada.


Quote:
mml1942
I am not sure that you are right in saying
Quote:
The marking "PRISONER OF WAR MAIL" and it's German equivalent "KRIEGSGEFANGENENPOST" were requirements on POW mail sent to the Red Cross, as that allowed them to direct the mail to the correct department upon receipt.
as none of the other mail I have or have seen from Canada to the Red Cross has that marking. If you have any reference to that requirement I would be interested in seeing it.


As I admitted in the initial post, it has been a number of years since I spent much time looking at Red Cross mail.

Note that I limited my statement to POW mail, while much of the other censored mail seen on eBay is not marked as POW mail.

My recent investigations focus almost exclusively on mail between two internment camps in Mexico which housed some 500 German and Italian civilian internees (who had been stranded in Mexico once the war started) who were writing home during the war period via the Red Cross. That correspondence was exclusively on the standard Red Cross Message forms, in ordinary envelopes, and addressed to the Red Cross in Geneva. As these were not Prisoners of War, their mail was handled differently.

It was my aging recollection that internment camp mail to civilians via the Red Cross was handled differently by the Red Cross than ordinary POW mail for foreign POWs in the USA and our USA families writing to POWs in Germany or Italy. Much POW mail in both directions was accomplished of preprinted forms (cards or letter sheets) which were printed with all the necessary instructions.
This could be in error. I cannot cite where I developed that impression.

As to the route used, I know that some of my Mexico origin internee mail was censored in Paris, and after D-Day, some was actually censored in Berlin. As to how mail from Canada to the Red Cross might have traveled differently, that is beyond my knowledge level.

parcelpostguy:
My linked cover was addressed to the Red Cross (Croce Rosa) in Geneve (Geneva), Suisse (Switzerland). I am not sure of the first word in that line, almost looks like "Hella" which I would translate as "Greece". Possible this implied that the enclosure was for a internee or prisoner or civilian in Greece.

I found the following webpage that may be of interest to anyone interested in this subject. While it focuses on the POWs in Canada writing to family at home, it reveals some of the efforts taken by Canadian authorities.

[disclaimer: I have not looked at all of it, it simply came up in a Google search and I thought readers here might find it of interest.]

https://powsincanada.ca/

Also this entry, which I could not find from the home page:

https://powsincanada.ca/2014/07/11/...mail-part-i/

First I did heard back, but then I realized I sent the wrong image. That has been corrected. When I hear back later I will post here.






Yes POW mail, mail for held civilians, interned non-combatants, and special others such as the US diplomat to Japan from his family, while handed by the Red Cross, they were in fact handled differently. Thus departmental differentiation was warranted.

I accidentally missent the image(s) so I am posting them here in the order sent and the replies I received.










As an aside, he added, I'm just finishing an 18,000 word monograph on the two US-Japan diplomatic exchange voyages involving MS Gripsholm. Due out in the Fall, free to MPHS members. [He has many publications on WW2 detained persons mail.]

While know for the human repatriation voyages it also carried mail to various detained, due to the war, persons.


Hope this helped Anthraquinone.

I have just noticed that there is a Swiss section in this forum so I have asked about these red marking there.

AQ