More Armenia Overprints Real Or Fake

Found some from Armenia, not sure if these are overprints or postmark, common or rare. Not even sure it is pre-1940 but I thought so. Can someone shed some light? They have been sitting in a book, that I took US stamps from about 1970 and I have not been in the world part til all of you started educating me. Thanks - Jeff

Definitely an overprint. Scott mentions at least 13 types of the framed and unframed overprints exist. It is the Armenian "H" representing Hayasdan ("Armenia").

Scott also mentions that counterfeits abound. The only way to be sure about these is to buy from someone who really knows the material. (For example, Scott says the framed overprint on the 2k green should use black ink. I wouldn't take that as definitive, though. I bet Scott is just trying to give a representative listing.)

I choose not to be sure, myself.

Just scanned these last nite Jeff,
Thanks for the entree...
I would like to know more about them as well.

Thanks Cjd, I like to err on the side of caution also. Also, posted another and BTW that's what I have about 18 of these overprints. I think I will scan them all and put them in the first entry.

The last one is Russia #219 $1.10 mint Scott 2007

b, you've got an Armenia, then a Ukraine overprint (overprinted again, (thanks nigelc) to become Russia Offices in Turkish Empire Sc#322, then a Russia postage due (Scott J1), finally a Russia (from 1922-23).

Third one is Russia postage due J1 $0.90 used in Scott 2007

Jeff, your new addition (the second scan, 7r green and pink), looks to be Scott 19, framed handstamp, violet ink.

[edit: Scans have changed...this is now the top left stamp in the first scan.]

The stamp with the Ukrainian overprint is quite interesting.

It was originally a 3k Russian stamp.

It was then overprinted in 1918 with the trident to become a 3k Ukrainian stamp.

However it was then surcharged in blue to become a 10,000 rouble stamp for the Russian Refugees post, i.e. for use in principle by the soldiers and civilian refugees in their camps in Turkey and other places after General Wrangel's "White" Russian army was evacuated from the Crimea in 1920.

Sorry to bumble you up Cjd, but I thought I had better try and show them all and maybe find out about them all at once. - Jeff

As mentioned by Cjd the Armenia overprints on imperial Russian issues constitute an area that requires patience and expertise.

The first 2 framed Armenia overprints shown by Jeff are common forgeries. The distinguishing feature of this type of forgery is the inward curve at the lower end of the diagonal of the "Z".

The interesting fact (as mentioned by R. Ceresa in his handbooks on Armenia) is that this forgery has been used, from as early as 1921-1922, as the illustration of the overprint in Scott catalogue, creating a lot of confusion and the proliferation of "forgeries of forgeries" (i.e second-generation forgers working under the presumption that they were imitating the real overprint).

I do not have a recent Scott, but I wouldn't be surprised if the illustration is still the same.

Well, since Jeff has uploaded a new scan at the beginning of the thread, I should mention that my comments regarding forged overprints concern the framed overprints on the 2k perf and the 7R perf stamps in his stockcard.

On the other hand, vasia, they've really done us a favor by repeating the same spotting feature over the decades.

I fully expect with this type of material that mine are generally forgeries. With regard to the Wrangel issues, for instance, Scott notes, "Reprints abound. Values probably are based on sales of reprints in most cases."

Good opportunities for the specialist (and for the aspirin manufacturers).

The other overprints are ok - Vasia, the 5 has the same curve but the 15 in the second group doesn't really have that pronounced curve in the Z, would it be valid. Do you know anything about the others? Anyone??

Jeff,

It is always difficult to judge the genuineness of Armenian overprints from scans, particularly some of the smaller scans shown.

Those that stand out as obvious forgeries are the following:

From the first group shown:

Violet framed overprint on 7R (inward curve of lower end of diagonal)
Violet framed overprint on 2k (as above)
Unframed black overprint on 3k (notice the reverse direction of both left and right hooks.

From the second group shown:

Violet framed overprint on 5k (inward curve of lower end of diagonal)
Black framed overprint on 15k (notice the extreme downturn to the top horizontal of the "Z").
10R overprint on 50k (notice that the "r" is above the "O" of the 10 - it should be below it).

I would be interested in seeing larger scans of the black unframed overprints on the 10k/7k and the 25k stamps (first group).

Thank you vasia and I do appreciate the difficulty with the intricacies of the forgeries and the imperfectness of the scan. I appreciate you taking the time. I am now making larger scans of the ones I think you want and will post them on this reply. If I don't get the right ones tell me. Thanks again - Jeff