What Is This? Is It A #114 Or A #125

This stamp does not have a grill. Is it a 114 or a 125?
Is it rare?
What color is it to you?
How much is it worth?

My bet would be a 114 with a pressed out grill. The re-issue's are extremely rare and there are no recorded copies of a 114 used without a Grill. Bottom right grill ?

Pressed out grills are a common alteration. A simple watermark check would probably show the grill indications.

Thank you for your intelligent replies....

I checked for a pressed out grill, and found none. The "postage" word is also deeply embossed on the back. And, I examined this stamp for hours using a high powered microscope, and still came to the same conclusion, that there is no grill. However, this stamp is definately more darkblue, than my other 114's which are clearly "ultramarine". If there are no 114's without grills, then I guess that this one needs to be sent off for certification to find out what happened to the missing the grill.

You can try, but I can pretty much tell you ahead of time that all the major expertizers will refuse to certify it. There should be footnote in the Scott catalog that tells you that for the 1869 issue, only mint original gum stamps can be confidently determined to have no grill. The only exception in the 1869 issue is the 3c stamp on gray paper.

Also remember that color guides really don't help much on 100 year old stamps. I would certainly try Russ's idea about the watermark fluid before I'd spend $60.00 to find out I have an $8.00 Stamp. If that reveals nothing, then I'd think about sending it in for certification. If you do send it in for a Cert, I'd recommend William Weiss as he isn't as expensive as PSE, or the Philatelic Foundation, but his certificates are trusted by anyone and everyone who know stamps.

I might add, it appears you are using a Stanley Gibbons color guide? Philatelic color definitions are not universal, so care must be taken when using a color guide for a different catalog.

Have you examined the stamp under a 365 nm UV light? If not, you might do that before certification. This may help any grill points show up better.

Matt

Matttodd1, welcome. Good point.

You may remove any multiple posts that happen from time to time by use of the garbage can icon above the post.

I came across this thread while researching the same question. The following may be helpful. Among many sources I often use www.1847usa.com as a stamp identifier aid. The site is very detailed. 1847usa acknowledges a Scott 114 "without grill" perhaps from a pressed out attempt to produce a fake many years ago or more likely a weak press at printing. Approximately 335,000,000 million #114s were printed compared to less than 1500 (that's fifteen hundred) #125. Odds are the grill is there. Sometimes watermark testing is misleading. However, try this: If watermark testing does not reveal the grill against the black background of the tray, then get a strong LED pen type flashlight and using your tongs lift the soaked stamp from the tray and tilt at an angle illuminating the stamp with the LED. As the stamp drys the grill most likely will appear briefly as the fluid evaporates and the stamps drys returning to normal. It appears only for a brief second or two. It may take several attempts but I normally spot the "elusive grill" during the process.

Works for me hopes it works for you.

Nilram88, Welcome to SCF. Thanks for the tip.

Hello, I read your forum comments on the 1869 Series Locomotive 114 & 125. It appears to me you should check into this further. The color difference is very noticeable when comparing a 125 next to a 114. Another thing I recently discovered is that the size of the two stamps are also different, at least on my example. Check yours. Measuring the vertical height of the 114 from perforation to perforation, the 114 is 22 cm. The 125 is 21.5 cm. There is .5 cm difference on the height of the two. The width seems to be identical. The detail on the 125 is also deeper and more clearly defined than the 114. Just because no used examples have been identified does not mean none exist. I believe I have one and if your stamp matches the height difference and it is compared to unused examples, we may be on to something.

Don't give up on exhausting all options before looking for a certification but also consider the odds. The measurement theory can be shot down with misperfing as many of those issues were poorly done and are far from consistant. For a measurement to be considered it would have to be the actual measurement of the image not from perf edge to perf edge. Also color shades vary greatly even on MNH copies so that is not a good reference. However don't give up as rarities are still being found all the time. Please keep us posted on testing results.

There are Copys of the 114 without grills it's known as the 114a I beleve there are 17 known Copys I did see a census but can't find it at the moment but I did find a auction for one from seige and here is the link
http://www.siegelauctions.com/dynam...&sale_no=958
But the chances are very slim that it is a 114a being as there are so little amount of them,as the others said it is most Likly a 114 with a pressed out grill, if it is with out grill it is worth a cert because either one makes it worth while 114a or 125 used 125's are as rare with only about 15 known used Copys . But check like the others said with fluid and uv light together to see if anything shows up

Thank you nitrolures. That was helpful info. It is amazing the size difference of the two stamps. I tested my stamp with watermark fluid and UV light. There is not any evidence of a grill at all. Are there any other tests anyone can recommend before I send in?

I have two "114a/125" (Said with tongue in cheek) Both are different in color and have been checked by me using by using a high powered science microscope, watermark fluid and LED lights and everything possible at my disposal. I am 99.999999999999999999999999% positive they are disguised 114s. btw, using the above methods I did detect pressed out grills on 2 other 114s.