Auction Estimates For Stamps Without A Listed Value

If you paid with a credit card you can file a dispute through them, if they do not return funds, should you decide to return the merchandise.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with this auctioneer. Before this all gets misinterpreted, please understand that I am not questioning that you had a bad experience with this dealer. It does happen, even with the best of dealers. They aren't perfect, even with customer relations.

I am aware of the dealer you speak of. I've bought over 100 large lots from him over many years, and can only recall returning 2 "non-returnable" lots (I received a full refund w/o problems, even though both lots were supposedly "non-returnable" large lots; one lot did not meet my expectations, the other lot was damaged stamps that the seller was not aware of). I do admit, I've bought very little from him since he raised the buyer's fee to 15% a few years ago.

It is completely out of character for him or any of his early staff to speak in that manner, although I know he has some new staff which I have not dealt with. I've never had any problems with returns or adjustments with him. Did you speak to him or his wife directly?

On another note, ENV is not the catalog value. I know you already know that. This paragraph is for the benefit of others. Definitions vary slightly among auction houses, but roughly it is the auctioneer's estimate regarding the average value that the contents of the lot would sell through dealers, or sometimes it is the auctioneer's estimate regarding the hammer price.

For your auctioneer, the value stated is catalog value unless they put ENV or Face Value. The ENV is only an estimate. While you and I may both disagree with the actual value of the lot, the question is whether his ENV was accurate to begin with. Many stamps that are not listed in Scott, are listed in Stanley Gibbons or Michel. I have noticed that since he joined SAN, the hammer price on his lots has increased considerably. I'm guessing he factors all those things in when he gives an ENV. Remember, his definition of ENV is NOT the hammer price.

One suggestion (whether for him or other dealers). Any lot that doesn't have photos, if you have any questions regarding the content of the lot you can always call his toll free number. I did that frequently in the early years. They always pulled the lot and answer any specific questions I had. Later on when I got used to his lot descriptions, I rarely had to call him.

Obviously, I haven't seen your lots. However, certainly the issue with a large number of partial sets with HV removed is a legitimate grievance. It should have been noted in the description, and since it wasn't, then I consider that a valid reason to request a return.

Whoever told you they would report you to the APS/ASDA is completely out of line. If that person was not the owner or his wife, then I would suggest speaking to the owner/wife directly and make a complaint about such a statement. The only legitimate reason for an auctioneer/dealer to make such a statement is if someone threatened to stop payment (i.e., non-payment complaint). Anything beyond that, then it is completely uncalled for.

I hope you can come to a better result. I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with this auctioneer.

[EDIT: I want to clarify a sentence in 5th paragraph. I agree with you that the value of the lot is not what is presented by the auctioneer (i.e., I disagree with the auctioneer).]

I have all of the emails with the owners signature. This is his problem, no one else's. I have never asked to return the lots nor will I. I only asked him if this was his normal way of doing business selling stamps. He stated it is and there is nothing wrong with his descriptions. His conversations just deteriorated from there. He also stated that I know nothing about the auction business or stamp business for that matter. So, I am learning more every day, even though I have been collecting stamps longer than he has been in business, and what I am learning is not pleasant.

Well then, that is definitely disappointing. Since you were not returning the lots or stopping payment, then as I stated before, his threat was completely uncalled for. I haven't talked to him or his wife in several years. Not sure why he has changed. He certainly wasn't like that in the past. Then again, he would not be the first dealer to have changed over the years.

Again, I'm sorry to hear you had that bad experience. It does happen, and I've had to learn the hard way as well. It's one of the reasons why I usually start off with small first-time purchases from a seller.

I hope you have better results with future purchases from other dealers.

And of course, you can always give the sellers at SCF a try!

Best wishes!

Thanks for the kind words of support. I really do not understand why a stamp dealer believes he must decieve the public to make a living, or perhaps some are really politicians in disguise?

Nothing worst than spending a lot money and expecting a decent bunch of stamps for your hard earned cash but it has bits a pieces missing when there should not be because of a description.

I have never been to an auction. All my bidding is from home using online catalogues and magazine type catalogues. I have become very use to the way the describers do there work for the auction houses and I very rare get a dud lot but it happens.

You people from the USA and your Scott's stamp catalogue being the end all and the total only way to get a stamp value is from it, just does my head in.

There are just so many catalogues out there that have been put together by the number one specialist in this and that stamping field and you are just not going to find that type of info all the time in Scott's.

Agreed. As I mentioned, many of those stamps are listed in either Gibbons or Michel. And of course I left out Minkus. There's actually an out of print specialized catalog for EqG as well.

Interesting Insights into the World of Stamp Collecting. So, Scott's Catalog is at fault for not listing a value on these stamp and the stamps must have value because you can find them listed somewhere else? Please remember we are talking Equatorial Guinea 1972-1978. If you have those listings, please share with us the value of the stamps for the period mentioned. Perhaps I am sitting on a gold mine and am too stupid to realize it.

falconrw...
When dealing with foreign stamps, it is well known that Scott is not even close to the authority on these.
There are other catalogs that are much better. Stanley Gibbons, Michel and even Minkus.
It is not the fault of the scott catalog or any other catalog. In the end it is your fault, you made an ill-formed decision based on incomplete knowledge.

The Filanumismatica Equatorial Guinea catalog goes up to 1975. As far as I know, SG has an abbreviated listing but does not assign catalog numbers/prices (somewhat akin to the old "For the Record" section that used to be in the Scott catalogs). I don't have SG West Africa catalog. Maybe somebody here does and can check.

Like Scott, Edifil has a gap.

Minkus is more likely to have something, but I don't have the catalog and it is long out of print.

2007 Michel Volume 6 (South and Central Africa) has listings and assigns catalog numbers for stamps, #17-#1451. However, pictures are few and catalog values are incomplete, mostly set values rather than individual values.

I don't know if a newer edition has come out. The values in Michel are rather high (my opinion), especially compared to what is typically seen in the US. On purchases I've made on African and Middle Eastern stamps that cite Michel catalog values, I typically pay less than 5% of the Michel values. My non-scientific buying experience. However, this does not apply to Michel prices in other stamp-issuing areas. Also, selling prices in Europe do tend to be higher, as SG and Michel catalogs are the heavyweights over there.

He sounds deceptive and crooked to me. He is afraid if you call him out he will be exposed and banned from selling. If he was honest he simply would have said send them back and I will refund you your money.

My 2 cents:

*IF* things transpired as the OP claims, the auction house's behavior and threats are despicable, unethical, and may actually be actionable.

On the other hand, and please do not take this personally, but I must be as blunt as possible: Anyone who relies on estimates in ANY auction is a fool.

Now that I've potentially got people's hackles up, let me explain:

Any value listed in an auction that is not an actual catalog value, may or may not bear any relationship to reality, and more importantly, estimates ARE NOT BINDING.

An estimate might be as simple as what the seller thinks the lot might sell for after glancing at it for 20 seconds.

An inaccurate *estimate* is not a valid reason for a return.

Furthermore, auction houses play games with estimates. Some houses set them artificially low so as to garner more bids, the thought being that by giving the perception that bargains are to be had, more people will bid. Other houses set them artificially high so as to give the impression that the overall "value" of the entire is higher than it really is, causing collectors who are looking for scarcer or higher value items to take notice.

Bottom line: auction estimates are a red herring. Don't fall for them. You should never bid blindly on bulk lots or collections. You must verify FOR YOURSELF... in person, via an agent, over the phone, or by images, what is contained in any lot you bid on, and then come up with YOUR estimate of value. Never EVER assume that an auction lot estimate is accurate.

On bulk lots, if you win it, you own it. Period. Saying the auction houses estimate was off is not a valid reason for a return.

Not knowing how the issue was actually broached with the dealer or what was specifically said, or what accusations may have been made, we have no way of knowing what actually transpired.

Equatorial Guinea stamps of the 1972-1978 may or may not be bogus and considered wallpaper like the Sand Dune stamps by many. Postal used covers of from Equatorial Guinea from this time period are rare. The stamps were not printed in this country and probably never saw the light of day either. This is the time period in which Francisco Macías Nguema was "President for life" and you know that's never a good thing. Equatorial Guinea was called the Dachau of Africa. Genocide was the norm and an estimated 80,000 of a population of 300,000 were either killed or fled the country. Another example in which some opportunist made "stamps" off of a country that wasn't stable to do it themselves hence why Scott and other catalogues have problems listing any value. I've listed and sold some of this material recently (it's interesting to topical collectors) myself, but you'll be lucky to get 99 cents.

revenuecollector: Nice analysis on auction estimates :) Always something to keep in mind.

Hello, well I am done with this specific issue/problem and will move on. However, I do notice Scott's Catalog listing more and more issues by Prices per set only. This was the original problem that I was attempting to get answered. If the stamps are listed by set price only, how can a person determine the value of a single stamp in the set. I understand the minimum value of 20 cents or whatever, but if the set of 5 stamps is listed at $5.00 does that mean that each stamp in the set is valued at 20 cents individually? or perhaps each stamp in the set valued at $1.00?