Catalog Value - A Conversation About Stamps And Money

Take this stamp as an example (which is not a stamp I own):



(assume for the moment it has no faults)

It grades Fine-Very Fine according to Scott and Unitrade catalogs.

So what is the catalog value?
With the Unitrade catalog, this is easy, because they give different values for VF and F-VF stamps. Scott does not.

So lets say I put this up on an auction website I could quote a 2011 Unitrade catalog value of $150. This would be accurate.

So lets say I put this up on an auction website I could quote a 2008 Scott catalog value of $225. This would be a bit of a mendacious statement since the catalog values in Scott are for stamps with a condition of Very Fine, which this stamp is not. In effect I have lied to my potential customers.

Now let's take the stamp with its minor faults, a few pulled perfs. Now can I quote any catalog value and be honest? Scott and Unitrade catalogs do not (except for a few exceptions which are explained in the catalog) give values for stamps with faults.

I see online auction sellers and even auction houses telling white lies like this, in the hopes of nudging a little extra premium on their wares on folks who may not know how catalog values are supposed to work.

And were you take this stamp to a dealer he/she will be more than happy to point out why you will not get anything close to Scott catalog value for the stamp.

So yes, my point is that it is dishonest and perhaps also a disservice to philately to tell these "white" lies. Less experienced collectors may not find out the reality of the value of the items they purchased for years hence.

Thoughts?

smauggie, you are correct, but even new folks learn quickly that scott (or unitrade) values are, for most stamps, inflated. When I returned to stamps about 13 years ago, I thought that I was getting incredible bargains on ebay, but it did not take long to realize the game had changed since the '80s. For Canadian and BNA I use unitrade to identify the stamp and it's scott #, then Brookman for prices since it lists VF and F/VF prices for MNH, MH, and used. I believe that Brookman is closer to actual prices that those stamps sell for. As far as descriptions in ebay etc, I am finding that more and more are inaccurate. I have returned 3 lots in the last month because of incorrect descriptions.

True. Condition is everything and you are right not everyone realizes catalog values are far from absolute. But I do appreciate seeing the CV as it helps me calculate a fair, condition-based, bid. I like to avoid running for a catalog to look up a CV.

On this stamp I would bid no more than, or price it, around 15% of catalog value. I follow Unitrade for Canada.

I agree with each of you Yakboomer and Crouse27.

My point is less about figuring out the ropes of the stamp business, but about what is an ethical sales practice for stamps. If I say, regarding the above stamp, "The Scott catalog value is $225," I have in effect, just told a lie.

We all learn to dance through the lies with more or less skill, but why should we have to put up with them at all.

very true. I am often disappointed with a seller's quote on the value of an item because it is not realistically worth that amount. They pump up the value to make more money but isn't that the cost of doing business? If I was selling something else like a car, wouldn't I want to quote market value instead of focusing on its deficiencies?

Just to let you know this is more than just an exercise in ethics. This is something that I am struggling with when trying to figure out how best to sell my own stamps. Something I have done nothing more than dabble with until now.

How about saying "The 2008 Scott catalog value of this stamp in VF Condition is $225. I consider this one to be F-VF."

Of course, that's a bit of long sentence for an auction heading.

Kirk

A better statement would probably be "2008 Scott CV for #103 is $225" and then let the picture allow for a personal decision on centering and pricing.

Back in the days before Al Gore invented the internet, I rarely saw a picture of a stamp I bought through the mail. Back then, you quickly (relatively speaking) learned which dealers were 'optimistic' about their grading.

[edit: My 'a better statement' was in reference to the generic CV reference, and not KirkS' statement, which popped up while I was typing. It only reads like it was a direct reply to him...]

Saying that the "catalog value is $250" is not a lie if that is what the catalog says. Since the catalog only lists one price, and does not list different prices for different conditions, it is what it is. That is not the same as saying "the stamp is worth $250". That would be a lie. However it is not the seller's job to invent a value for the stamp. The seller owns it, he can ask any price he wants for an item. The seller is supposed to describe the stamp's condition as well as possible, but the buyer is supposed to know what the specific condition of a stamp does to the actual value. That is part of learning about the hobby. The key is having an accurate description regardless of catalog value.

An interesting topic and one that poses an ethical dilemma to anyone, myself included, who has ever sold a stamp on any venue.

As a buyer, you come to realize very rapidly to use any quoted value as a guide only. Further, especially when a large CV is quoted, you tend to do research as well. The only REAL misrepresentation is if faults are concealed in any way. Determining what you, as a buyer, think it is worth will determine what you pay in the end.

As a seller, if listing a catalogue price for a less than perfect specimen bothers you, could be solved by just listing the Scott Catalogue Number and let the buyer look it up for themselves. This is not the best way to promote a sale though. Or you might phrase your CV quote as something like "Scott lists this stamp in Very Fine condition as $150.00." As long as you are then scrupulous about describing the condition, I do not believe anyone could possibly fault your description.

Ultimately, it is up to the buyer to decide on what they are willing to pay and you cannot really put much blame on the seller for quoting a "recognized" authority. It all lies, again, in condition and the honest description of this factor.

Your concern is even more apparent in this description. "I am offering a collection of more than 1000 stamps that catalogues at more than $200.00." Perfectly true but .... And this is one that would really take advantage of the beginning collector.

Beginning collectors should always think ten times before spending more than a few dollars for stamps until they have some idea of what they are doing. Especially on ebay, bidstart,
etc.

It's been indirectly mentioned in the previous posts, but a true estimate of "condition" lies within the eyes of the buyer and seller. There have been many occasions when truly rare stamps have been sent for multiple expertizations and several highly respected expertizers have each reached different conclusions as to the actual grade of the stamp.

Remember, too, that there are those occasions when sellers have tried to have a stamp expertly graded so as to attain a condition of either "XF-Superb" or "Superb" in grade, resulting in a seemingly common and minimal value stamp being pushed into a value of hundreds of dollars that is beyond the expectation of most rational collectors. In this situation, too, there have been different grades given by different sources, which could change the value of an item tremendously. In all cases, it always comes down to what the buyer is willing to accept and the what the seller is willing pay for any particular item.

As long as one is truthful is stating what the catalog value may be in a stated condition and there is an accurate scan to accompany the listing that allows any potential buyer to evaluate the stamp for themselves, I think the listing can stand on its own merit.

I thought it would be interesting to see what people are actually paying for the 20 cent Quebec Tercentenary stamp in unused/mint condition on ebay.


From April 30 to June 30, 39 stamps were SOLD in the following price ranges :





Examples from different price ranges:

$6.00



$11.96





$ 22.50



$31.35



$45



$69.00





$460

I did not include this one in the above chart. It sold for $460 (30 bids)



These are real stamps and real prices.

CJD:

I think you and I were attempting to say the same thing -- great minds, you know

I guess the one subtle distinction for me would be an attempt on my part, especially if I were dealing with an inexperienced collector, to point out that Scott Catalog is based on VF; a standard which this stamp doesn't quite meet.

I realize the rule of the land is Caveat Emptor (a phrase I learned in high-school Latin), but I think a LOT of collectors never bother to read the preface of their Scott Catalog.

When I talk about stamps with non-collectors, I often find myself saying, "it has a catalog value of X, but sells for much less."

Anyhooo... this is a thought-provoking thread.

Kirk

lorddenning - nice bit of research!

In Scott, there's but one catalog value, and the Seller should quote it, but in a certain way: "Scott #363 catalogs $225 as a very fine, lightly-hinged copy. This stamp has a bent perf UL, a tiny hinge thin plus a hinge remnant, a short perf at Right, and would grade only F-VF. Exceptionally fresh with strong color. All sales final."

Then you've covered all the bases, positive and negative, and if you are scrupulous in your plus-and-minus factors, no one should complain.

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This level of detail also discourages Sellers from listing stamps worth 10 cents.