Catalog Value - A Conversation About Stamps And Money

Smauggie,

I feel your sentiment but agree with many of the others that it is not a lie to simply quote the catalog value as a benchmark, and provide accuracy of the photo and description. Without the CV from Unitrade or Scott, there would be chaos and definitely all kinds of white lies. What is your solution the alternative?

To me, its like par on a golf course--every one knows that no one shoot par. No one pays catalog value or anything close to it. Or Kelly Blue Book for a car--then condition and other factors come in to play.

Its all about Caveat Emptor as KirkS noted, not Caveat Venditor.

For example, in the US when one buys a house, you are compelled to disclose every known defect...but the British system (I bought a house in New Zealand) has NO disclosures (eg Caveat Emptor)--which as an American was annoying and akin to your outrage on the "white lies"...but after a time, it dawned on me that it is a better system. quite liberating.

So, in my opinion, the CV of whatever should be referenced as a benchmark, then let the stamp speak for itself to the buyer.

I wonder what the reason for indicating the catalog value, anyway? I have my own copy of the catalog and would want to look the stamp up there before bidding, I would not rely what the seller gave as a catalog value.

The Seller's catalog may be more recent than yours. Also, in the case of specialized foreign catalogs like Facit, there are esoteric items that only appear once every five or six years. Soldiers' postal stationery is a good example.

I quote the Scott catalog value in most of my listings, but try to leave adjectives or superlatives out of the description, and leave that up to the buyer. After all, it doesn't matter what the seller thinks a stamp grades; it's what the BUYER thinks it grades that is important.

And to reference a statement made earlier in this thread: mentioning the Scott catalog value when the stamp in question is some grade other than VF, is *NOT* lying to the customer. That's twaddle.

You start with the catalog value as a baseline (since that's the only reference we really have), and then go up or down from there based on each stamp's characteristics.

Keep in mind that the Scott catalog value is not sacrosanct. There are many stamp attributes that Scott does not even factor into its pricing, so all Scott is (or any other catalog value for that matter), is a starting point.

Some stamps are worth 10% of Scott. Others are worth 5000% of Scott.

Smauggie, I agree with Tommy, the catalogue price is and can only ever be a guide price. Be honest and complete in your description, and the buyer will take more notice of this than anything else.

You are a nice guy who is a collector not a dealer, and who sees things from the perspective of another collector, maybe an inexperienced one. And that's not neccessarily a bad thing, but we're all adults and in any hobby or sphere of life you have to be responsible for your own actions, and that includes furnishing yourself with basic information before spending your money.

And remember, the title does not sell the item, merely draws customers to reading the further description.

To satisfy your ethical dilemma, and to help educate any greenhorn collectors who might look at your auctions, why not add a note at the end of each listing, to the effect "catalogue prices quoted are intended as a guide only and the actual value depends on the condition of the stamp".
(you might want to spell that "catalog" )

Hi!
To me, the catalog values give a feel for the stamps value in relation to other stamps. In this way I can rather easily tell which stamps are more valuable than others (duh...).

But the real value is only based on what someone would pay for the item. Soooo, I feel that auction situations like ebay are the true guides.

Sometimes they are, but people go nuts at auctions too and pay far more than items are worth at times. It takes a lot of experience to really know a genuine range of the value of many items, especially in the more specialized areas. And there are many stamps not listed in the major catalogs in some fields such as revenues. Then experience is the only way to know.

Americans have approached the spelling of "English" words a bit differently from the English and Canadians.

For example, "Catalogue" spelling is used in Britain and Canada. But "Programme" is often shortened to program in Canada.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ameri..._differences

Here are a few more differences: American spelling on the left.

Why can we not understand that Scott's catalog aren't meant for the collectors though that is what they are primarily used for these days. They are meant manly for the sellers of stamps and thus this is their thought when they price stamps in their catalog.

Thank you to everyone for your honest and intelligent comments.

As human beings we are great at learning the context of a social and economic interactions.

The business of collectible stamps is an intriguing one in that it seems to sit (perhaps uneasily) between being individual and unique items, and of being a commodity. The advent of the stamp catalog seems to have cemented the stamp business into this conjunction of two business models.

If the catalog says all stamps of this type and condition are worth $X, this has the effect of "commoditising" stamps. An example of a product being a commodity is to say one pure gold bar of a given weight has just the same value of another pure gold bar of the same weight.

Where the rubber meets the road though, we find stamps in a wide range of conditions, and grading a stamp is based on not just one factor, but on several (centering, sheet position, freshness, integrity, gum, cancel/markings, genuineness, etc).

Now I am not saying we should do away with stamp catalogs. They perform a very useful function exactly as a guide (as many have mentioned). Dealers rely more on the catalog than do collectors as they have to evaluate every item in their inventory to determine the right price to sell it for.

We collectors have the leisure of choosing to focus our attention on a single or select group of countries.

The fact is, whether we say, "Catalog value is just a guide," or "Stamps sell for less than their catalog value", is that the catalog value, while useful as a guide, for the vast majority of stamps, is not correct when it comes to the market value of a stamp even when the stamp is VF Mint NH and faultless. I think I can safely say that, generally, the listed catalog value is significantly higher than the market value of a given stamp.

This comes as a surprise to almost nobody on SCF, no doubt. This is the way the stamp world has been for over a hundred years.

It is changing, though, and Lorddenning has given us an example of how it is changing, through analysis of publicly available information about stamp sales.

revcollector and perhaps others said it is not wrong to quote the catalog value by saying, "catalog value is $X," or something similar. I would only say that while only offering a phrase or a few words, what you have at the heart of that statement is a prepositional phrase which in its full form looks something like this:

The catalog value of X is $X.
Or in a particular example: The catalog value of this stamp is $32.50.

While we may not say it like that, our minds understand the phrase to be the sentence that it stands for. In that case, while we may not be actually lying, it may be considered to be misleading.

Keep in mind, I am not personally against using the catalog value in describing an item for sale. I think Doug's post comes closest to how I think catalog value could be used in offering an item for sale.

I am in the process of trying to introduce a friend to the hobby. One of the first things I told him was to not make purchases on ebay until he got some more experience under his belt. It was in thinking of how to introduce someone to the hobby that many of my own questions came up, and wondering why our philatelic world is so complicated. But perhaps if it wasn't it wouldn't be as much fun.

LordDenning, Stampgal & Others:

I'm American, but I tend to spell Catalogue with the "UE" on the end. Both Scott and Stanley Gibbons have it printed that way on the spine.

Kirk

I disagree. You are imputing a specific meaning on the reference to a catalog value, forgetting that others could draw completely different meanings.

You say that the implied meaning of a reference to a catalog value is "The catalog value of this stamp is $X" (emphasis on THIS), whereas I would maintain that the meaning, especially as Scott intends it, is "The catalog value of this stamp in VF condition is $X."

See the difference?

Whether it's online listings, show dealer stocks, even high profile auctions, the catalog value is virtually always referenced, regardless of the actual condition of the item in question. Sure, auctions and some dealers may give an "estimated value", but those are usually more B.S. than the catalog values.

Like it or not, the catalog value is a comparative reference point, and applies for all stamps regardless of condition. Granted, the ACTUAL value of the stamp itself may not be anywhere close to the stated catalog value, but that's not what we're discussing here. The implication that putting the catalog value in a listing where the condition of the stamp is not EXACTLY the grade the catalog prices in, is somehow misleading, is complete and utter horse hockey.

Catalog values have been comparative reference points since the dawn of collecting, and it's up to the buyer to determine whether the specimen in question exceeds, meets, or falls short of the parameters of the pricing. The buyer needs to have some knowledge about what they are purchasing, and if they do, then the catalog value reference will serve exactly the purpose for which it is intended.

Now, you want to see "the wild west", try collecting in areas where there are no catalogs...

"Now, you want to see "the wild west", try collecting in areas where there are no catalogs..."
I do, and I have for many years, specifically Special Tax Stamps. There is a book on them (there are hundreds), but it has no prices which is actually a good thing since it was written in 1975, long before ebay showed the size and scope of the market. 40 year old prices are pretty useless anyway. However after several decades of collecting and talking with other collectors I have a pretty good idea of the values involved.

Smaggie, I happen to agree with what Revcollecor has written.

Catalogue values are more an indication of relative scarcity, but are meaningless to many. I collect postage due stamps, with the many '000s of Aussie dues I have purchased on ebay over 12 years, the acquisition price is 11.2% of the catalogue value. In this time I have identified several stamps where the price sometimes needs a '0' taken off and in as many cases, a '0' added on!

Catalogue value is a retail indication but the advent of online trading makes a retail price irrelevant.

Also, now that grading is becoming more apparent (from a simple separation of values for stamps in fine and average condition) to grading of stamps out of 100 points, the value becomes more an agreement between buyer and seller rather than what any catalogue indicates.

I start all my ebay offerings at $0.99 and provide conservative but, in my view, accurate descriptions of what you will receive. My buyers are mostly happy, I've had a couple of returns and have cheerfully refunded purchase price and postage. Trouble is, that's what all the dud sellers do too.

Our own education is the key, knowledge is power and all that.......