Do You Get Your Money's Worth From The APS

If I may take your statement and rewrite it, this is how I see it ...

When you're trying to attract new members from a population of prospective applicants that is, by its very nature, unwilling to pay for products and services that are widely available at less cost or for free, it's a difficult proposition from the get go.




What you are essentially telling us is that the APS' value-added services are set, and even if you can find exactly the same thing elsewhere at no cost, you're a cheapskate.

Nice. Does the APS openly insult prospective members, or do only other APS members hurl them?

I am 44 years old and have been online for more than half my life. I came back to the hobby because of the internet, not because of an advertisement by one of the big stamp companies in a newspaper. The next generation is coming of age and they will have been online their entire lives. This generation is not going to discover the hobby through an ad on the back of a comic book.


If the APS doesn't find a unique niche to draw more people in, or find a way to offer their current services better than everyone else, they will not survive. That, and if their members continue to give off this air of superiority, some of us might actually not care of it happens ...

Brian

What you imply above is *NOT* what I said. You deliberately took two SEPARATE concepts I referred to and inferred a connection between the two. Moreover, I never stated (or even implied) that "the APS' value-added services are set". Where did THAT come from?




You are taking general observations on my part, mistakenly drawing conclusions from them, and then taking insult. If you are so easily insulted and offended, finding a personal slight where none exists, methinks there are greater issues at play here.

If I had said "This post is directed at rileysan", then I can see how you could get all offended, but that was hardly the case.

To quote the movie: "Lighten up, Francis."

How about this: "Stamp collectors tend to be frugile." Does that pass your sensitivity test? That, combined with the prevailing sentiment amongst the younger demographic that "if it's on the Internet it's free" makes it a difficult task for the APS to create new functionalities for prosective users while at the same time covering costs.

Re: implied supriority, nothing could be further from the truth. I too am in my 40s, earn in the low 5 figures, nothing to be superior about. You're reading FAR too much into what I write...

The context, as I understood it, was that people don't join the APS because they are cheap, not because their products and services are lacking.

Just because you disguised this idea behind the context of arguing over a nickel stamp, does not make it any less offensive.

I pay membership fees to 3 organizations - The Oregon Stamp Society, the German Philatelic Society, and SCF - and I do so gladly because they offer me something unique or they are better at doing what everyone else does.

So hear me clearly, because you are not telling me anything different from what other members have stated.

Why should I join the APS? What is their value-add? What do they offer that no one else offers? What do they do better or cheaper than other organizations?

If I hear "magazine" one more time, I'm gunna puke ...

Brian

It's not an either-or proposition. It's a bit of both. Also, your statement that APS "products and services are lacking" is not fact. It may be true FOR YOU PERSONALLY, but certainly is not true for everyone. As I previously stated, just because the lineup of services does not contain everything that YOU want, doesn't mean that it's deficient.

Personally, I find the magazine to be one of the least valuable parts of APS membership. It's ok to read casually, but 90% of the articles don't appeal to me.

Most APS members place some value in supporting a society that supports the hobby. You apparently do not; you're interested solely in what you personally can get out of the membership each year, which is fine. I don't agree with that perspective, but it's certainly your right to have it. If your criteria for APS membership being worthwhile is that the sum of the value of ONLY those services you personally find useful must exceed the annual cost of membership, then no, I probably cannot recommend APS membership to you.

Aspects of APS membership that I do find useful:

1. Discounted insurance rates for my collection. If you are not interested in insuring your collection, this benefit has no value to you.

2. APS Circuits. They don't come around as frequently as I would like, but I am only subscribed to the U.S. revenue circuits. I don't find things often, but I do occasionally find something worthwhile.

3. APS Stampstore (buying). I don't buy there often, but I have found some WONDERFUL pieces there over the years. I also like that I can choose APEX expertization as part of the checkout process. It's at a discounted rate (2% of Scott the last time I used it, but it may be up to 3% now), and if the item comes back either not what it was represented to be or if it has faults not described by the seller, I don't have to buy the item or pay for the expertization. Even without choosing expertization, if you receive something that has undescribed flaws or was not correctly identified, there is a no question return policy. It's a safe venue to shop in.

4. APS Stampstore (selling). It's been several years since I had inventory there, and things tend to not move quickly, but it's a convenient way to sell material. The commission rate is pretty high at 20%, but that's not so bad when you consider that you don't have to deal with creating pictures or handling the order fulfillment. You need to make 100% sure that what you are selling is properly identified and all flaws described, as returns are on your dime, including fines for improper item submission. Unlike with circuits, when selling through the Stampstore, you can see the status of your sold and unsold items online, and raise or lower prices whenever you want. I wish their image quality were more consistent however.

5. APS membership itself does open some doors in relationships with certain dealers. Whether accurate or inaccurate, some dealers will not take you seriously without APS or other philatelic membership.

6. Supporting the hobby. Let's say that you perceive $20 of the $45 per year goes to supporting the hobby, are the rest of the services worth $25 per year to you? What about $30/$15? How you break it down is up to you... it's all about how much or how little you feel that what the APS does as being worth supporting.

There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to "value". It's in the eye of the beholder.

At the end of the day it's up to you and no one is going to castigate you for not being an APS member.

*shrug*

Rileysan, we get it, you don't want to join the APS. That's fine and dandy. I don't think you need to keep asking for people on here to give you reasons why you should join.

I have one observation to make on the poll numbers thus far. Assuming that almost every vote comes from an APS member, it would seem that over 40% of those members are, in some sense, dissappointed with their membership. Can any organization, with such a high rate of dissatisfaction, long endure? While I find myself currently on the "pro-APS" side (albeit minimally), I think not. While the poll is not scientific & has too small a sample size to be truly significant, it does seem to point towards a continuance of the membership decline of recent years.

Let's think in a different direction.

The American Topical Association has reported modest growth in membership, but still growth. Why do you think it is? What is it they offer that APS doesn't?

My primary purpose for joining ATA was to get the magazine. However, I've also used the check lists, and they are doing a lot of work in that regard. They do not offer the full slate of benefits and services APS does, so what is it that is setting them apart.

I had never heard of the ATA as relating to stamps, (I may not have been paying attention)I always read American Taekwondo Association. Figures, me being a martial arts instructor by trade.
I did go look at the online courses last night and found that at a $5 member price, it may be something that I may incourage our club to get and view together, but since I can research all the info I need personally on the net, and most likely right here on this forum, I would not pay that price for myself.
Gadzooks! I can rent a blockbuster movie for $1 at redbox. Yes, apples and oranges, I know. However, If the info is not going to be free, It had better be darn close.
Take Mcdonalds for instance; A million $1 burgers is a million in revenue. The higher priced place like Sonic may only have to sell 200k to get a million but thats convincing a lot of customers to to pay $5 a burger. (btw, we had our first sonic burger only a year or so ago)
Concept is the same though. I'll admit it Im too cheap to pay the price. I am an APS member, and I get a loot from their site, but I cant see paying anything else for the info they have available.

gee -----looks like my posting about ways to improve and expand the APS got lost in all the noise . I rather discuss the future instead of beating up people over past short-comings .

Well, as a one-time, but not current, member of the APS, I have enjoyed this discussion as much as many on SCF. There is always a lot of passion and many well considered thoughts and ideas on all sides of the debate. Thanks for everyone who is participating. I think there are many great points.

Some general observations from a 40 year APS member and why I stay (joined February, 1974)........... I thought RevenueCollector made good points; maybe I can add a bit.

But first, got to get this out of the way: Rileysan wrote: "If I hear 'magazine' one more time, I'm gonna puke........" Here it is; have at it: "magazine." ;-)

I tend to evaluate an organization; one that is not "cause related;" with the amount of "hits" I get for my dues money. By "hits," I'm generally meaning publications. For $45, I get 24 "hits" per year from the APS; the afore-mentioned monthly publication (I did not use the "word;" got to protect Rileysan's sensibilities); and a monthly e-newsletter. The internet publication is much shorter than the print publication, but it has all sorts of links to other cool stuff. 24 for 45 is one heck of a bargain in my opinion. By spending an extra $18, I get the quarterly APRL journal, which is extremely interesting to me, even if I'm not an avid collector of postal history, the focus of many of the articles.

Expertizing: someone mentioned Bill Weiss. He seems to be highly regarded as an expertizer of US stamps. No help last fall when I needed a certificate for an older Ceylon stamp. Where to turn? Philatelic Foundation? (haven't done business there in 25 years, but I respect them). Sismondo? (don't know him). PSE? (no way I do business with the entity that started the idiotic stamp grading craze). British specialty society? (don't belong to one). Even if I wasn't an APS member, APS was the place to go.

Buying stamps on line: APS Stamp Store has worked well for me. Yeah, some stuff is overpriced, but I see the same on ebay or DelCampe when I go "visiting" there. And, while I haven't had to return anything to the APS, I know that problems will get solved by APS staff. Try that with ebay; maybe yes, maybe no.

Selling stamps on line: Again, it's APS Stamp Store all the way. Since they collect the money and ship the product for me, it's worth paying the commission for lack of hassles. And none of that silly rating of sellers either, like ebay. If stuff doesn't sell after a reasonable period, you may get approached by APS to consider donating unsold material to the APS in return for a tax deduction letter. Now that is real; and I've done it. Does ebay offer tax write-offs? Don't think so.

Value of the APS member number: about a year ago, I did business with a mail auction house for the first time. I provided my APS number, and year I joined, on the bid sheet. I was amazed that the dealer shipped my successful bids; just over $1,000 in material; without invoicing me first. Doubt ebay or BidStart will provide that service for you.

Final thought. At the start of this thread, Art identified the places where one can get cheap information or services if one is not an APS member. Lot of sources, most of them good. But am I the only person who noticed that APS provides ONE STOP SHOPPING? Yes, I utilize some of the services or locations that Art identified. But they're generally secondary to APS. (disclosure: I do belong to a couple specialty philatelic societies which provide info about those collecting interests that I usually don't get from APS)

Great points made by both Revenuecollector and Climbersteve. It's nice seeing member services being broken down clearly - not that the APS doesn't, but for those who want to hear it firsthand, and not from a marketing brochure, it's helpgul.




I never once stated I didn't want to join. Nor did I criticize anything the APS does. I kept asking the same questions because most everyone answered the same way - by presenting products and services that are widely availalbe elsewhere.




It's really hard to not react with knees jerking all over the place. This is wrong for two reasons.

1) You act as if the APS is the only organization who supports the hobby and by extension, if I dont' support the APS, I don't support the hobby. What a bunch of bs.

I stated in a previous post that I financially support 3 organizations. Are they somehow lesser than the APS because they aren't as big?

2) Where did you get the notion that one should not expect/enjoy benefits from a hobby related organization, should they choose to pay money to support that organization?!? We are not talking about feeding and clothing the poor here. The benefits of such an organization need to be tangible. To imply otherwise is ridiculous.

If there is real concern about the future of the APS, the APS board and its members need to better market the organization!

Brian

Brian, no one said that by supporting philatelic groups other than the APS you don't support the hobby. Stop reading between the lines and jumping to conclusions. You accuse everyone else of knee-jerking, and you are engaging in that very practice yourself!

*YOU* are the one that put forth the requirement for APS membership to be worthwhile that the APS needed to offer a sum total of services that you use that are either cheaper than found elsewhere or not found elsewhere. By definition, that means that of the $45 annual membership fee, you don't consider any of that to be the intangibles that the APS does to support the hobby. You want $45 worth of services that directly benefit YOU.

It's pretty clear that you and I will not agree on the value of APS membership, so let's just agree to disagree. APS membership is not worthwhile for you. It's no big deal. It's not the end of the world. Let's just move on.

I give up.

Happy mothers day ...

Here's a list of benefits from the website, and my thoughts on each.

StampStore — Purchase stamps online. No bidding, watching or waiting — you see it, you like it, you buy it!
Good service. Find the prices reasonable.

Mail Sales Circuits — Buy and sell stamps from the comfort of your home.
Again good service. I cannot articulate why I prefer it over dealer approvals, but for some reason I do.

Expertizing — Obtain guaranteed opinions on the genuineness of stamps and covers.
Have not used, but will be using to expertise some early, potentially high-value US I've uncovered.

Quick I.D. — Get help identifying that troubling stamp.
Have not used, but it seems like a pretty good service. Apparently, you send them a scan and they help with proper ID.

The American Philatelist – Full-color, 100-page monthly magazine.
Not everybody likes the magazine, but I do like it. I think it is a quality product and interesting, even though it rarely relates to my collecting interests.

Insurance — Protect your collection with the most comprehensive stamp coverage available.
Good deal.

Online Members Only Area — Log-in and update your membership profile and view your account status. Also take advantage of online specials — articles, discounts, online exhibits, and more…
Meh.

Library — Our expert staff and vast collection of print and digital resources are ready to assist you with your research. Access online resources, request scans, and borrow books or obtain photocopies by mail.
As I've stated earlier, I have obtained quite a bit of information I couldn't find online. It does cost to borrow books, but it is a very valuable resource.

Exhibitions — Buy and sell stamps, attend seminars, view exhibits, and expose young people to collection at our two annual shows.
I have not availed myself of this. I enjoy viewing exhibits, but that's about it for me.

Learning Opportunities — Learn more about collecting at APS seminars, through online courses, or receive one-on-one help through the Mentor Program.
I've never used this but it seems good support of the hobby.

Publications — Take advantage of the 20% member discount. Our book list offers titles covering a wide range of topics for all levels of collectors.
Nothing of interest to me, but the prices seem OK, though you MIGHT find some cheaper on Amazon.

Translations — Request a translation of philatelic-related material.
Interesting service. I've not had to use it yet.

Member Disputes — Deal confidently with fellow members. The dispute process provides a means of enforcing the APS Code of Ethics.
Well, OK.

As others have noted, another service that has benefitted me is the ability to open doors. My APS number has given me a bit of leverage with some dealers.

Finally, I like the shows. I attended the Ameristamp Expo show in Louisville and in Little Rock and met many people, and bought some good material for my collections. Of course, you don't have to be a member to attend.