What Would You Do?

Don I respect you very much and don't want to have any bad feelings between us, but what you did here was not fair. Firstly as for calling people names, this was started by Bill calling the seller (i.e. Kevin) a liar.

You knew from the outset that this so called "poll" involved a transaction between two frequent posters to this board. Why did you conceal this fact? How would you have reacted to having a private dispute aired in public under the guise of a poll? Of course Kevin took it personally, it was about him! Under your cloak of anonymity you even went so far as to ask whether we would trust this seller in the future. How would you feel if you were this seller?

Sorry, but this whole affair just smacks of pettiness (boo hoo he won't sell me a stamp I want) and you and all of us are above this sort of thing.

Jenny,
I did not feel I was concealing anything. I intentionally worded it in theoretical context so that it did not insult anyone. In my mind this is a interesting topic and one that I wrestle with, people submit Reviews to Stamp Smarter and just like any forum moderator I am faced with deleting, censoring and otherwise disallowing those which are inflammatory or have hidden agendas. There are no Reviews on Stamp Smarter where I have allowed anyone to write up this situation. In the same way I also have disallowed anyone from writing up a Review for shill bidding. Am I making the right decisions? This is why I make these polls and ask for additional input. Note that the threads/polls I have posted always have great input and thoughts for both sides of the topic.

I think I presented the topic/poll fairly, it is a legitimate issue that ebay has now addressed no matter what any of us think about it. Obviously folks are clearly split on the topic of when a transaction has completed and a meeting of the minds requirement has been met. This has legal basis in most states in the US but I am not so sure how it applies to international laws. At some point in the transaction the item ownership transfers from the buyer to the seller.

But this is what I was interested in getting feedback, and not to have the thread/poll derailed over a personal dispute between two people who should address their issues between themselves. So I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that this was about Kevin. Was I aware of the situation between Bill and Kevin, but just like my previous posts/polls which also have roots in decisions that I have to make with my involvement Stamp Smarter.

These topics are not easy nor are they clear cut. It helps me greatly to hear opinion from many people so I can make better decisions and justify them to others when I do. Is this selfish? Perhaps but I would like to think that they are also current topics which affects us all. Again, you can make whatever assumptions you care to even through I have tried to explain the intent. I fully understand that you did not derail this thread/poll, it came off the rails when Kevin decided to make it public what happened between himself and Bill. This never, ever had to happen and I regret that it has. We could have had this discussion independent from any real life situation and that was my intent. Obviously you are welcome to make unsubstantiated accusations about my intentions but I see no benefit to the community in doing so. Please feel free to contact me via the messaging system if you have these kinds of concerns but doing it publicly is not right nor healthy for the community.
Don

Jenny2U.....much thanks for standing up for me.
You have put it in words for me better than I could at the time.
YES...I was fustrated because I felt ambushed by this poll. I knew
the situation was not facticious, it happened.
I got the negative to prove it!

This is the right place.
This is the place you started this topic.
I was standing up for myself (and ALL SELLERS) durning this
transaction. BEFORE....I replied to this topic Bill W called the seller a LIAR.

Lets think about things clearly.....
Why do you think Bill is out against misdescribed
items @ ebay?
He was a volunteer (unpaid) member of the ebay Fraud Committee...
and was disbanded, fired, whatever the case.
He has a expertization service....Lets call this item bad, this item and so on....
If I (Bill) keep telling everyone of all the
misdescribed items @ ebay maybe they will send to me for expertizing (for his profit)???? This is a way of advertising???

Kevin,
Sigh, more misunderstandings. My point to Jenny was to use the messaging system was for unsubstantiated accusations, not making on-topic points. I repeat, none of MY posts have said anything about anyone. I have not insulted anyone, I have not made assumptions about anyone. You guys act like Bill and I are one and the same person.

As for Bill, as stated I have only known him for a relativity short time. But I do know him well enough to know that he is actually trying to cut back on his business; I have previously offered a few idea for him to increase his business and he has told me he is not interested. He is not a 35 year old guy who is trying to build his business, I think he would rather go hit some golf balls. I also know that he is in a mode 'to give back'. He redesigned his web site to offer much free information and tools to help people become better educated, go look at his site and explain why he would post information that help people identify their own stamps. he teaches classes for APS that do the same thing, basically taking money from his own pocket to further education of hobbyists. He also comes into this and other forums and gives people free opinions, something that he also has a service for. Why would he do these things is if he was so profit-orientated? Makes no sense. But once again we are making assumptions about another person's intentions. I may be off base and Bill has pulled the wool over my eyes, but I believe his actions speak volumes.
Don

I have nothing further to add, so I am bowing out now, but Kevin I just hope that you have placed Bill on your blocked bidder list (all his IDs).

Sheep are wooly wonders that trot faithfully alongside their shepherd — or wander away, heedless of the shepherd. It is said that, given an unlimited food source, sheep will eat until they die or until their shepherd pens them up. They can agitate each other until group panic sets in, yet without the group, they are defenseless against predators.

Jen and Kevin: it is refreshing to see that you have both chosen to not be sheep.

Don,

Sigh, "I do know him well enough to know that he is actually trying to cut back on his business" ... someone being constantly spammed on each of his posts here with his expertizing ad might think otherwise. Just sayin. Sigh, Sigh.

MikeQ,
If you are referring to Bill's avatar please understand that I actually did the graphic for him and with the reason that there was another BillWeiss user and folks were getting them confused. I thought if he added his logo it would help eliminate confusion.

In to be completely transparent, I do also help Bill with technical issues. When he has a issue with a printer or his PC I often help him get things working again. Being the gentlemen that he is, he endlessly offers to pay me for my services. I have turned him down every time. He follows up and offers his services to me. I have exactly zero Weiss certs in my collection even though I am sure Bill would do them for me at no charge.

Bill does complain to me often, he complains that as a one-man shop he is covered up with business and lacks time to do other things he would like to do. So again, people can make assumptions and his motives and it is true that he may have me completely buffaloed but his actions are more than enough for me to form my own opinion as to the type of person he is. I have no doubt that he can get too emotionally involved in some issues that are dear to him. In my opinion his passion can exceed his better judgment at times but which of us can say that we have not also allowed this to occasionally happen?

Everyone has motives for behaving they way they do. In my opinion we ALL are on shaky ground when we start publically talking about them. Stamp Smarter is a bed that I made and I understood from the beginning that it had the capability of causing heartburn with some. No matter what I say or do there will people who are not happy with it or with me. This is true for anything of this nature. It is like an inspection or audit. Some folks see an inspection or audit as a bad thing while others see it as an opportunity for improvement. Does anyone really want to take their car in for an inspection? If someone in your company say they are coming to audit your department is it seen as a good thing or as trouble?

Bottom line is that some people will always resent Stamp Smarter and perceive it as a threat. But I have tried my hardest to not allow the site to slip into a flame fest and/or tool used to fulfill other people's personal agendas. People don't see it, but I have disallowed many, many things that I feel crossed the line due to these reasons. These are indeed topics and issues which support many different perspectives and opinions but hopefully folks will see it for how it is intended, to help the hobby via better education.
Don

Sorry for the double post...

And if I may, I'll describe the next poll I was considering to illustrate the type of decisions I face. A reviewer identifies a forged cancel on a listing which is quite a high value stamp. He goes to the trouble to call out the exact reference book that contains evidence for the forgery; right down to the page number with illustration. Upon notifying the seller and making them aware of the forgery, the seller responds quickly and professionally but asks for a photocopy of the applicable pages from the reference. I let the seller know that due to copyright laws and the fact that the book is on loan from the APS library (which has copying rights), we cannot send this to him but he can get the info from APRL. For whatever reasons he is not up for doing this and is leaving the listing as is.

Now the dilemma. Just how much due diligence and responsibility does a seller have in these kinds of cases? Is it ok if the stamp has a value lower then $XX.XX? Does the seller having a 'money back' guarantee remove or lessen their responsibility for this kind of diligence? In my opinion this is a grey area. Currently I allowed the review to be posted, noted simply that the seller does not agree with the review, and leave it at that. I certainly do not allow anyone to flame the seller or make assumptions about their possible motives. I gave the seller an opportunity to improve and they decided to not take that opportunity. So be it but I don't allow anyone to call the seller names or question his motives.

But given the response to this poll, I will refrain from doing this again. I will truly miss having other folks being able to provide me with their opinion on these kinds of topics but understand that some folks will likely turn it into some conspiracy theory and use it to call me names and question my own motives. The forum does not need these kinds of headaches and I apologize to those who feel offended in any way for my previous polls/posts.
Don