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Has Anyone Seen This Stamp

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72 Posts
Posted 10/30/2014   1:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Belfastgirl to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
who is Don who is Mike and what do you mean spare us the conspiracy theories
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Posted 10/30/2014   1:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Belfastgirl,
We are two people who shouldn't be hijacking your thread. As stated, this is something that Mike should take up with me privately.

But back to your original post. My only suggestion was that in your first threads, one of which went one for 6 pages, you also were seeing some very fine, subtle details in the stamps that your images were not revealing. You mentioned that you were getting a scanner and after a few tries you worked out how to post a better quality image.

My suggestion was that if you think you have an unusual stamp based upon fine details, post a closeup or higher quality image in your first post and ask specific questions on those details. This will get you your answers faster.
Don
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Edited by 51studebaker - 10/30/2014 1:30 pm
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Posted 10/30/2014   1:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Belfastgirl to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the advice Don I know the photo wasn't very good I just wanted to see if anyone knew about the difference in design .I guess I was a little excited when I seen the stamp was so different from the others ....You'll see what I mean when I post the stamp a little later.

PS the A44b would have been made before the A44 ( you can see the changes from the one in question to the A44b to the A44)
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Posted 10/30/2014   1:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Belfastgirl to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
...and I thought stamp collecting was a boring hobby ......I stand corrected its very interesting sort of addicting in a good way !

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United States
1942 Posts
Posted 10/30/2014   4:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Belfastgirl, mind if I jump in here? As a specialized interest I have been studying the stamp designs you are looking at here since 1975. I've seen a few things and I may be able to help.

The terms A44 and A44b are conventions that the Scott catalog uses to differentiate two design states for the various one cent stamps from 1870-1886. Your comment that A44b must have preceded the production of A44 betrays a rather fundamental misunderstanding of how the catalogers approach this. I also sense that there may be some misunderstanding of the topic of intaglio printing of US postage stamps. Both these subjects are covered in an introductory way in the intro to the US Specialized. I am going to assume that knowledge in what I say here.

Below I have uploaded a side by side image of A44 (left) and A44b (right). The image on the left is from an early plate proof dated 1870, and shows the original version of the A44 design type. The image on the right is taken from a die proof of the A44b design, for the one cent redesign of 1881. These images are derived from scans taken through the plastic of the mounts in which I keep the actual stamps. Except for whatever error the mount introduces, and adhesions on the glass of the scanner, these views give you the purest forms of these two designs. (If you need to see die vs die and plate vs plate, that can be done, but should not be necessary.)





The first design (left) was created by the National Bank Note Company in late 1869 and early 1870. From that point until about 1877 the one cent stamp was printed on hand operated presses onto a comparatively bright, thin, stiff paper. For that medium the design did just fine for National and the company which followed them, Continental Bank Note Co. However, from 1877 until their consolidation with two other companies in 1879, Continental began to print their stamp on paper with a different kind of sizing agent that changed its overall texture. It was softer, and stamp paper became progressively softer after the consolidation into the American Bank Note Co. in 1879. By 1881 it was very much softer than it had been in 1870, and the trusty old design was not showing up as well as before. In 1881 the Government called for an improvement, and in June of that year Edward F Bourke was enlisted to rework the design on the original die. This he did with acid etching, and the result is what Scott calls A44b, the design on the right. Since that work was done it has been impossible to get an original die print of A44, so the change is unalterable. Moreover, the original plates were also put to rest, and so the design A44 can no longer be printed in any form.

All of this matters because it sets aside any possibility of the revised chronology you had suggested above to account for what you think you are seeing. Now that you know something of the background behind these two designs, perhaps you can appreciate why it matters a great deal to be clear about which design family your stamp is in. I do not need a sharper image to be able to tell that the stamp in the scan you posted is more like the image on the right and so part of the A44b family. Whatever else you want to say about it, your stamp could not have been made before June of 1881.

Now that you have a clear picture of the original designs, perhaps you can use it as a comparative reference for the feature(s) you want us to notice about your stamp.
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Edited by essayk - 10/30/2014 4:20 pm
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Posted 10/30/2014   8:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Prehaps it should be mentioned that the white line extending from Mr. Franklin's throat in the scan on the left ( the A44 ) is just a inking artifact, and not a true variety.
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United States
1942 Posts
Posted 10/30/2014   11:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It turns out, Phil, that the spot in question was due to the way a piece of bamboo in the India paper interfered with the transfer of ink to the paper. It created an uneven surface there that did not print well. This from a plate proof! Next time I'll use a die proof.
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Posted 11/01/2014   4:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Belfastgirl to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The image attached to this post is the stamp I am referring to.

I would like to thank you for the information you provided and I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not trying to argue or be disrespectful to you. However I would like to show you so you can see what I mean.

There are many differences between this stamp and the A44 and you can see the changes that were made to this stamp that resulted in the A44 then you can see more changes made that resulted in the A44b

I have added some red lines to point out some of the differences and I will post a side by side photo showing the gradual change in the stamps

thank you


Thank you

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Posted 11/01/2014   4:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Belfastgirl to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The scroll at the bottom right doesn't have a fancy tail the one on the left does

The second dot in U.S.

The center of the top left scroll

Various shading differences example the collar of his shirt

Lets have a contest and see how many difference you can find ..LOL
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Posted 11/01/2014   5:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Belfastgirl to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The change in the center of the top left scroll doesn't change until the fourth stamp and you can clearly see the difference.

So how about a contest to see who can find the most differences !

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Posted 11/01/2014   6:11 pm  Show Profile Check orstampman's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add orstampman to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The stamp in your first post today is Scott 206 (A44b), the re-engraved stamp. The top three stamps in your next post are Scott 206 (A44b), and the bottom two appear to be either Scott 156 or 182 (A44a, with the secret mark in the ball to the left of the "1"), depending upon the paper type.

The bottom two stamps (A44a) were printed before the top three stamps (A44b) (hence why the A44b printed in 1881-2 is referred to as the "re-engraved" design of the A44a printed in 1873).
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Posted 11/01/2014   8:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add disi123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Lets have a contest and see how many difference you can find


In a word... *clueless*...
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Edited by disi123 - 11/01/2014 8:45 pm
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Posted 11/01/2014   9:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Belfastgirl to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So what your saying is they made the bottom stamps first with all their artistic shading and fancy scroll work.

..............THEN...................

They decided to remove most of the shading and fine detail that make the A44 such a beautiful stamp and go with the BLOTCHY, UNFINISHED LOOK instead.

I thought the detail on a stamp usually went from plain and simple to an improved version in time.... and your saying the A44 went from a beautiful stamp to an unfinished patchy looking mess .

and you actually think I would settle for an answer like that ?

Did you see the mess they made of the words "U.S. POSTAGE" ?

Why would anyone do that intentionally ?...They wouldn't

Why would they take a silk purse and turn it into a cows ear?



I guess I'm doing it again not agreeing with the stamp expert

Well I'm sorry but I just cant see the reasoning in that


you don't have to be an expert to figure this one out ..just a little basic common sense will do.


I think the first version of the stamp looked unfinished, blotchy and plain. In time improvements were made and the fancy scrollwork and shading were added....not omitted.
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Posted 11/01/2014   9:33 pm  Show Profile Check orstampman's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add orstampman to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
We'll, OK then. All that I can offer you is a recommendation to read the Scott specialized catalog for United States which provides the dates of printing for the A44, A44a and A44b designs. There is also a great reference on the early US stamps by Lester Brookman which provides much more detail. Cheers!
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Posted 11/01/2014   9:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Historical DNA Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This really looks like the work of an Internet Troll.

An Internet Troll's main objective is to incite others into negative emotions such as frustration.

Bellfastgirl seems to know quite a bit about these stamps. "She" seems to be mocking everyone by challenging them with baseless arguments.

Some Trolls are better than others. They can make you believe their naivete and then try to break you down with seemingly innocent replies.

Some are very difficult to identify. I see a pattern here that troubles me. "She" seems logical yet breaks down to illogical arguments in the hopes that it incites members to be frustrated with "her."

Obviously, it is impossible to identify a Troll unless you're sitting next to them. However, I think that we have all seen enough to realize that Belfastgirl is resistant to logic. We can all see how "she" has made statements in several threads that defy logic and attempt to provoke us to react in a negative manner.

Belfast girl, I challenged you in another thread to explain your behavior. I ask of you again to explain why you have valid reason to doubt the expertise of the members that have attempted to help you.

You agree, then suddenly come up with baseless arguments that seem to be intended to incite an emotional response. You just don't make sense.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm right. However, your posts and replies make me feel very strongly that you are Trolling us.

The only way that I know of how to provoke a Troll is through intimidation. That was stopped during your "Unique" thread. Let's resort to logic. Why do you feel that your arguments are valid despite advice that you admit is "better" than your understanding?

Why do you continue to argue when the facts are laid out clearly for all to see?

If you are a Troll, then obviously you will not respond in a manner that confirms so. If you are not a Troll, then you should come up with much better arguments.

You might respond to my reply with arguments that sound at least somewhat logical. I hope that others will now have at least some doubt about you. It's not easy to definitively call someone out as a Troll.

I hope that others can see how "her" history of posting shows someone that is leading us on. Who has delayed posting useable images until doubt has occurred. Someone who has questioned undeniable evidence that counters "her" arguments. Her posts seem intended to incite others into an emotional reaction. That is the hallmark of a Troll.
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