Do Auction Houses Falsely Report Sales?

That is why you should bring tools to an auction viewing, and why they usually have tools available as well.

Bill,

I said, VISUALLY WITHOUT A PERFORATION GAUGE,

" I don't know about you but I cannot tell visually the difference between a perforated 12 and a perforated 11 1/2 without a perforation gauge. ".

I didn't realise you can tell the difference visually between an 11 1/2 & a 12, I can't, I use a gauge,

Pagoda

And you ARE allowed to use a perf gauge, and tongs, and watermark fluid and tray! It is just as revcollector says - bring your tools! An honest auction house, like any other type of business is not out to cause harm to their clients; buyers, sellers or consignors. But there has to be orderly fair rules by which all parties must abide. And no auction house can stay in business very long if it treats it's clients badly. Word spreads. Dan has no qualms about decrying auctions that he feels are ethically-challenged, so anyone who reads his words can get his point of view. And that is as it should be. The marketplace tends to level the playing field.

The previous statement that some auction houses simply take the highest bid as the bid is not accptable to me.

The while idea was that you ar trying to replicate a room auction where I only have to bid one step over the second highest bidder, not the maximum I am prepared to pay.

I will not bid with an auction house who perates on this basis (unless I really want the lot).

Bill,

a hypothetical,

I ask an agent to inspect a lot regarding condition which I am interested in, he checks the item, finds it OK and informs me. I bid on the lot and finds it is in incorrectly described. According to the terms and conditions I have no right of return. You state that reputable houses will accept it back which is of course correct but that is not stated in the terms,

Pagoda

Stamps are a specialty and takes an actual collector/enthusiast to know exactly what to look for and unless you are at an actual stamp auction and not say like at an estate sale you will will probably fare much better. Plus taking the highest bid is what an auction is all about right? If you have something worth "X" amount of dollars and you get a lower number than you would have hoped for than it's your fault for not putting a reserve on it. So I think Bill & Dan are correct. I am no authority and this is just all my conjecture but that seems how things work no?

Pagoda - You are correct, it's not stated in the terms so that every bidder just assumes it's OK to return lots for ANY reason, which is certainly not fair to either the seller or the house. So they need to strike a fair balance in how they administrate their sales, and it IS fair to hold someone who has personally viewed material to be accountable. But as I said, there are exceptions. And in the example you just used, if the item had an undisclosed fault, the house would take it back. However, let's be clear that this would not apply to ALL undisclosed faults and I don't want to make the discussion cloudy, but common sense must come onto play. By that I mean that if we are talking about a stamp which has an undisclosed thin (let us say), then I think the house would allow the return, but if we are talking about a cover with a small undisclosed fault which would not likely materially affect the value, then no, the house would not allow it. Some houses - and we were one - spelled out specifically what could and could not be returned and in the case of covers, many state that "tiny edge tears, back faults, portions of flaps missing, etc are not grounds for return". So having read those terms, when you or your agent view the lots, would it not be unreasonable to expect the house to take back a cover that you find has one or more of these faults?

The tendency is for most collectors to (rightfully so, I guess) want to consider auctions sort of a "fun game" to play because it's their hobby, so to them, things like the Terms of Sale are mundane, often overlooked, and sometimes violated. But to the house it's a serious way to make a living and run a business.

Collectors need to treat an auction for what it is - a legally-binding contract. Don't enter a legally-binding contract then cry "foul" when you encounter some aspect that doesn't suit you. Read the Terms before you bid. Understand them and assume the house will enforce them. If you have any procedural questions, feel free to ask. Any seller, whether and auction or not, who won't answer questions are to be seriously avoided like the plague!

Having owned a retail shop for 25 years I can attest that this behavior is not limited to stamp collecting or auction houses. A saw a lot of people who would buy an item, use it, and then return it. A good example is pet carriers like you use to put a pet in on an airplane flight. They were expensive and often only needed for a single specific trip or purpose. It got so bad they specific signs were needed to let people know they could not buy one, use it once, and then return it. (Who know what possible diseases, fleas, etc. a used carrier had in it.)

I am a equal opportunity hater of people who are 'takers'; it doesn't matter if you are a buyer or a seller. All returns cost money for all parties but the cost is clearly passed on to every other customer. Doesn't matter what the disposition is from the auction house, store, or online seller; these costs end up being covered by all of us.

So every buyer should do their homework and not be returning a lot of material. And every seller needs to properly described their items and not play stupid 'marketing' games to seduce a sale. Want to see how to sell online properly? Check out Ken Srail's web store at http://srailstamps.com/. Properly described stamps, high quality images of front and back of stamps, terms and conditions beautifully laid out, nice money back guarantee (i.e. no 'as is' crap).

Transactions that start with a seller like Ken are far more likely to end with satisfied parties. Playing the return game is a losing proposition for everyone except the shippers.
Don

... and the problem will only get worse starting this month as PayPal and ebay are extending the return window for Not Received and Significantly Not as Described claims from 45 to 180 days.

Use something for 5.5 months and then say you're unhappy with it and the seller is on the hook six months after the fact. Find a nicer or cheaper copy a few months later? No problem, just say you're unhappy with the first one and return it.

Most sellers I know wouldn't like to be hit with 3- or 4-figure return six months later. It can turn cash flow upside down.

Under the new PayPal and ebay no sales are ever final.

True enough. But the flip side of the coin are buyers stuck with fake crap that they couldn't get a cert for fast enough and end up missing the return window. I love the one ebay seller who terms and conditions state, 'if you are going to try for a cert you have to let me know up front'. But at least this is better than sellers who pull the 'As is' bit; which basically means 'I don't care what you think after you get it, you rolled the dice and now own it no matter what'.

Just goes to show you how much risk people are willing to take if they think they are getting a bargain. Frankly I do not have a lot of sympathy for people who buy this way, stick a forgery in their albums, and think themselves good hobbyists. I do feel badly for their families who one day will discovery that grandpa actually got taken and the family collection is not what they thought it to be. And I certainly feel bad for the noobs who stumble into the hobby only to be permanently turned off after being taken and losing money.

I guess there is a happy medium somewhere in terms of a return period. Obviously we all have been in a situation where we legitimately need to return an item. But ideally we would all being willing hold ourselves responsible when WE make a mistake and only use a return policy rarely. And just as ideally those sellers which prey upon human emotional weaknesses would knock it off and start selling properly. Philately would benefit in both situations and then what ebay does or doesn't do would not matter much. But none of us are holding our breath.
Don

Bill,

thanks,

Pagoda

How is that unfair? It's what auction houses insist upon. Most auction houses state you need to request extension either prior to or at the time of bidding, not upon receipt of merchandise.

Not unfair, just don't understand why all stamps would not have the same terms and conditions. It is good that at least they define this and post notice, but what changes when you notify them? Would not everyone simply notify them on every purchase, whether not no they actually intent to get a cert, just in case? If so, just seems like an extra hoop to jump through for no real reason. Hopefully the seller isn't going to change the terms and conditions based upon a buyer telling them they might go for a cert, or would they?

Maybe it is a consigned item???

A seller can make whatever rules he/she likes....
Especially if clearly posted.
If a buyer does not like the rules....just go elsewhere.
Simple.

Are not the T&Cs between the consigner and house called out before the lot is taken on consignment? Why would they change when a buyer gives notice?

And yes, I concur that sellers can make up whatever T&Cs they want and prey upon the uneducated, new or clueless buyer. That might indeed be 'simple' but does that make it right? Does that help the hobby?