Columbian World's Fair Station Machine & Hand Cancel

I purchased this some time back and am just now getting around to it. I don't see other dual cancels out there to get a handle on value. Has anyone seen dual cancels on cover before? Any idea of value?
Thanks
Bill

Very interesting. The hand cancel was applied at the postal window first at 1:30 then likely handed back and the dropped into the mail for the machine cancel at 3:30 as the back cancel has that time. It overpays the 5c rate to Germany. Items such as this are fairly unique so won't be valued by Scott. A specialist might value it based on the price for the hand cancel, plus 50% of the machine cancel value and perhaps an additional 20% for the foreign destination. Due to the rough condition of the cover perhaps a 70% discount of the calculated value would put it in a fair ballpark. Just my opinion. Very neat.

What did you pay for it? Actually, I don't really need to know. My point is that you established some basis for valuing it by buying it. Like Crouse27 says, you cannot look items like this up in a catalog. But along the lines of his reasoning, I would think that the double cancel adds interest that offsets the condition. So value it as you would a cover with a single cancel in better condition!

I agree, the value for this item is an art, rather than a science fot the reasons above.

May I suggest a revised chronology: The letter was mailed at the Expo, it was faced and run through the cancelling machine at the Expo Station (it looks like a 1:30 slug on the lower line of the machine dial), the clerk noticed the inadequate cancel on the left stamp and struck it with the handstamp (also at 1:30, give or take, since they would have changed-out the time slugs every half hour). Then the letter went to the main office where it got the 3:30 pm backstamp on its way to Germany. The letter would not have been handed back.

Being that the cover was not made by or mailed to a philatelist dealer it appears to be a commercial usage. Therefore, John Beckers chain of events makes good sense to me.

If the cover was created by a dealer, Hiram Deats for example, with intention of being sold to a collector then perhaps my theory of events might hold up as a philatelically created item that received special handling to create a very special item.

It would be a neat item on an exhibit page having both cancel types. I have never seen another cover with both cancel types and back stamps.

For reference the hand cancel is Bomar type C93-02.
The machine cancel is C93-11A.

In my 2012 Scott catalog the hand cancel on U349 value is $85, machine cancel is $40.

Same in my 2013 Scott catalog.

What's interesting is that had the Scott 231 stamps been affixed to a conventional envelope the same cancellations would be valued at $110 (hand cancel) and $55 (machine cancel) respectively.

In essence, the use of stamps on a Columbian stamped envelope actually diminishes its market value.

Does that really follow, necessarily? What you have are two different valuations, neither of which are for an item quite like this one. Maybe I just don't have enough experience with the postal history aspect of philately, but I would think that the lower valuation wouldn't be right, because that valuation considers only the U349 on cover, and the Columbians should enhance that. And might not some think, from the standpoint of the Columbians on cover, that the U349 adds some novelty that adds to the value?

I haven't given any consideration to whether it is franked properly for the postage needed (probably not).

I've never seen a cover with both either. I thought someone may have seen one at auction. I can't make out the time on the machine cancel. I thought the machine cancel would have been applied first. If the hand cancel was used first there would have been more.

You're probably right, especially when there are few to compare it to. No matter what the "catalog value" may suggest there are both positive and negative aspects to the cover shown.

Obviously, the cover is not a clearly listed item. Technically, it is both a stamped envelope and a cover with stamps bearing both a machine cancel and a handstamp cancel. Unfortunately, the handstamp cancel is not complete on the cover and the cover itself is in rather poor condition, both of which may affect its value negatively, while having two added stamps and the multiple cancellations on the same cover may affect its value positively. It really comes down to supply and demand and how much an interested collector would pay for the item.

When I pointed out the range in value for the postmarks on a Columbian Stamped Envelope as compared to Columbian stamps affixed to a plain envelope, I was thinking along the lines that perhaps the Columbian Stamped Envelopes were readily available for purchase at the Expo as compared to one having simply bought the stamps at a post office and having affixed them to a blank envelope at another time. It seems to me that it would be less likely that a sender would have had a blank envelope at the Expo in which to affix the stamps in order to receive the Expo Station cancels, which could account for why the catalog suggests that cancellations on a blank envelope would be some +/- 30% higher.

The Scott catalog is largely useless for trying to value postal history. For exposition oriented markings, the Bomar catalog is the appropriate guide, and even then postal history is open to infinite interpretation. The combination of handstamp and machine on the same cover is unusual and this cover would be of definite interest to Columbian Expo collectors, of which there are more than a few.

If I had this cover and I had it in my retail stock, it would be marked at $50 (and without some of the damage it would be $75 or, if pristine, possibly as high as $100).

Several other factors that would need to be incorporated into the overall equation in trying to come up with a ball park value and that diminish whatever the final number might be are: 1 the two stamps are on upside down making it less presentable; 2) the stamp on the left is significantly damaged; 3) the hand stamp camcel which is the one that is valuable runs off of the edge of the envelope so it is not complete; 4) the envelope is raggedly opened across the top; and 5) the cover is dirty and there is a large water stain on the right. I would see it as more of a useful reference piece or place holder rather than a show piece or main example for a collection.

I agree with John Becker's assessment of the chronology (and reason for the handstamp expo marking.) Dual expo cancels like that (machine + handstamp) typically appear when an item was fed upside down (machine cancel misses entirely; handstamp added after) or when there are multiple stamps and machine cancel misses (or barely hits) one or more of the stamps. There are also some rather attractive philatelic concoctions showing both types of cancels (even fed through the machine multiple ways):



The handstamp and American Postal Machine expo cancels on your cover are the most common varieties for each type (Bomar C93-02 & C93-11A,) and there's nothing else remarkable about the cover (rate, destination, etc.) Condition is a major detractor. I'd assign a retail value of no more than $25, but even priced there it would be a slow mover IMO.

Srailkb - yours is a nice example that would show well in a display or take pride of place in a collection.

The covers above illustrate a couple of different thoughts on collecting. The cover I posted is a postally used example probably kept by family members. Storage and care were not very good. Although we will never know the history or hardships they may or may not have endured. There were 2 World Wars and a depression among other things to survive. The second cover was a souvenir purchased probably at the Chicago World Fair. There were a couple of people that manufactured the covers and sold them there. The cover wasn't postally used and was made to go straight to storage and survived very well. I like both very much but I prefer actual usage the most. It is a very interesting and different piece that will remain in my World Fair and Exhibition catalog.
Thanks for the help
Bill