Ridiculous Ebay/Paypal Situation

Actually, here in the U.S., they can. It's called Attractive Nuisance Doctrine.

Back to the issue at hand, this is nothing more than over-the-top rhetoric from someone throwing a temper tantrum because ebay won't do "what's fair". At the end of the day, you know what ebay's policies are, whether you agree with them or not. If you choose to still sell there, the results are on you, not anyone else.

There is an easy solution: Don't sell on ebay. I keep reading people lauding Delcampe and Bidstart as viable alternatives, so maybe those are better options.

Newsflash: Even if not on ebay, if you accept PayPal, you *STILL* will have to prove delivery, not shipment. It's not just an ebay policy.

Don and revenuecollector are correct, although I would depart a bit from rc's observations, as in my view a broken leg would not be a reasonably foreseeable result of installing a basketball court. If the company had installed a rock climbing wall, then yes.

The other writer's basic point is that ebay's proof-of-delivery requirement feels illegal because it cannot be reasonably complied with. Unfortunately in the US this is not the standard. In most US states the issue would be whether the commercial practice is "unconscionable"--so outrageous as to be utterly unfair to any consumer. It's a high standard. Here, ebay's requirement *can* be adhered to, it's just a question of cost, which the other writer apparently is not willing to bear.

Many examples come to mind: FedEx hold-for-pickup service where the recipient has to go to a FedEx location to get the item; private couriers that will provide a sworn statement of delivery; personal delivery; buy private business insurance with a low deductible and then claim a loss. These are not as outrageous as they may seem. As an example, the unreleased German Audrey Hepburn "smoking" stamp just sold on ebay for in excess of EUR60,000. Suppose the buyer settled via PayPal. Would you send the item via registered post? Probably not. You'd hire an agent to fly to the buyer, place it in her hands, then sign a sworn affidavit that delivery occurred. (I'm tempted to throw in a pop culture reference--something about Jim Rockford in "The Italian Bird Fiasco"--but I will resist.)

If you don't like the rules or can't cover the costs, you're in the wrong business. And a long way from proving unconscionability.

Chris

Chris - interesting observation, although, according to ebay rules, the signed receipt would still not suffice to prove delivery (as it is not electronic and cannot be looked up) - so, yes, I would send the Hepburn stamp by registered mail with adequate insurance. This would surely meet ebay's requirements for electronic tracking and delivery?!
John

Registered mail is not accepted by ebay in the United States because on-line tracking is not available. FedEx or Global Priority Mail Express would be a better choice for high ticket items according to guidelines of the insurance carrier.

Attempting to make customers pay for items lost in the mail is more or less incompatible with running a successful stamp business. Instead, using the appropriate shipping method is more effective. In some cases it may be necessary to use the ebay Global Shipping program. I have not tried it, but for some high value stamps, it may be an acceptable alternative assuming that ebay allows it to be used selectively. Ironically, First Class mail international for normal stamps is less expensive than tracked First Class Packages in the United States. If a $25 or $50 stamp disappears, I refund the money. Usually no more than one or two items disappear in a year. If I suspect foul play, I block the ebay account.

In one case, a buyer in the Netherlands claimed non-delivery and filed a case prematurely, I refunded and then it finally arrived about a week later. Then, the buyer short paid with damaged US postage, claiming that PayPal would blocked him from paying (clearly untrue). Later, I checked the SCADS web site and found the same ebay ID reported as a dodgy seller.

I know this is getting way off topic, but I feel compelled to respond. The basketball court is not a good analogy. Unlike a swimming pool or a trampoline, a basketball court would not be an attractive nuisance unless there was some defect or condition that contributed to the broken leg. Otherwise, a basketball court is no more inherently or potentially dangerous than a grass lawn where kids might play football. So the parents could sue -- people can sue for almost anything -- but they wouldn't win.

cfrphoto - You are quite right, thank you. You'd have to use a method recognized by ebay, of course. With adequate insurance, whether privately obtained or through the carrier.
John

all sellers on here please watch out for bad ebay member his id based in India with Morton Grove, ILL USA postal address. He claimed in Feb 2015 refund for item not showing now has new ebay id and has bid and won $49 item from me. I am refusing to post to him unless he pays registered $21 fee which he won't. So if you see one based in India with USA address mentioned above don't send it in the normal post or you will be stung with item not received claim. I can't list ebay ids on here if any seller wants to block his new id please contact me. His old id from feb 2015 no longer shows on ebay. Definite scammer with 100% feedback

Since when? Was there a formal policy against this announced here that I missed? I'm tired of people being intimidated into not naming names for the good of the community. I participate in multiple forums for other collectibles where warning people by outing scammers is normal everyday practice.

All info is good info in my view.

I sell on e-bay, mostly small items. My general rule is if I have a customer in the U.S. who claims non-delivery more than once, I require them to pay for it to be shipped registered return receipt requested. If it is from a foreign country and I lose more than 1 a year I block the country. I have only had to block 2 countries China and Brazil. I think with China stuff gets taken by local postal or customs officials. I ship to Hong Kong all the time with no trouble and I've never had trouble with Indonesia, Thailand, Japan and the Philippines.

Brazil is just corrupt and stuff gets stolen. I have shipped to other countries in South America with no trouble.

If stuff does get lost I just refund it, because the old saying the customer (buyer) is always right, holds true with e-bay

Paypal have just this evening sent me a message stating that they require proof of shipment, not proof of delivery:

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/m...r-protection

This makes sense, so I'm very glad to have this confirmed.

It's ebay which - going by my recent experience - does not regard proof of shipment as sufficient.

Funny that both Paypal and ebay are owned by the same corporation...

They are no longer related, PayPal was spun off as an independently traded company in July 2015.
Don

Looks to be a PayPal AUSTRALIA rule....
PayPal in US...is proof of DELIVERY.

51, I didn't realize.