Probably My First Z Grill Find On This Damaged 12c?

Hello,

from what I see this is a Z grill? I see horizontal ridges and the right number or rows or columns.

If so: What is left from the CV in this condition?
(I paid 20 USD for this and some other stamps including a 5c #95 in a
bit better condition)

Anyway this will be a great grill example in my album to compare with in the future.

Kind regards,
stamperix

It is an "E" grill. Each of the individual grill impressions is square. The "Z" grill would show each individual grill impression as rectangular with the long axis running horizontally. Still a nice find though!

Hate to ask you to take a little graphite from a pencil onto your finger and transfer it from your finger to the grill, but there are points that look like they could have horizontal ridges, at least to me. Can't see the ridges well enough in the image, at least for me.
Since its flawed, you really don't have anything to lose by adding the graphite. Would love to see another image after adding the graphite.

Thanks, Ray

thank you both. just for learning: can an E grill also have 18 rows?

here another image. Before I try graphite I took a photo from angled view. I can see some horizontal ones here. The last two line at the bottom seem to be damaged.

Looking at your second image of the reverse, I would say that it is a "Z" grill. Contrary to the poster above the points appear to be rectangular not square and there appear to be horizontal ridges with sideways "V"s at each side. However, only someone actually looking at the stamp can be sure.

I have two of my own "E" grills in front of me that are certified and I will go with your stamp being an "E" grill. I will defer to Mr Crowe however given his credentials.

Hi, using graphite, seems like damaging a classic stamp to me.

Can the graphite be removed without damage to the right and proper stamp in question?

I realize this stamp is damaged, and perhaps the graphite isn't going to affect the unknown affect on the stamp price.

Stampmaster

This image is from a 12c Z Grill essay. (there is a whole set of them in different colors and on different papers - much less expensive than mint 12c stamps with Z Grills, so good for study). Really fresh impression and clear. Should give you a good idea what a Z grill looks like.

Also, in person, the Z Grill stamps have a somewhat distinctive shade of dark grey/black that is hard to describe, but easy to see once you've started to notice it.

Chip

Thank you again. I will probably make a scan soon. It's just easier to make photos as the scanner is not here in my office. I will try both and let you know. But that is was it interesting of those US classic expecially with grill that it's kind of detective work.

What I can say is that I don't see any ridges that could be vertical but some that could be horizontal. Also I see 18 rows which I thought would speak for Z grill. The image of the grill essay is also kind of similar.

No need to rehash the entire subject of graphite on grills because it's been discussed here many times.

Do a search for Bill Weiss with the subject "graphite"... and on grills he stated that it was safe and could be removed with a soft eraser. Many used grills have the graphite on the stamp when purchased and I can't see where it would ever detract from the value on a used Grill.

This was a flawed stamp, worth no more than 1/20th to 1/10th CV, so adding graphite to help ID it isn't going to change or detract from the value. I wouldn't recommend using pencil on the back of a MNH stamp, btw..:)

Thanks, Ray

I am a huge fan of graphite. All of the pencils that I use contain it. The palladium nitrate pencils suck.

The trick with graphite is to have a light, gentle touch. very little is actually needed to bring out a grill.

http://www.stampsmarter.com/learnin...8Grills.html

Don

I disagreed with Bill Weiss publicly about this when he was alive and I do so again now. Once the bits of graphite get into the broken fibers of the grill, no eraser is going to tease them out. They may not seem to be readily visible in some cases, but they are not all gone. It is a one way street.

I will concede that if the grill did not break the paper fibers, then the mesh might not trap the particles of graphite and you might be able to remove all of that. But you have an equal chance of driving a particle further into the mesh by applying downward pressure with a gum eraser.

In this case better imaging is doing an adequate job of revealing the nature of the grill. I am not seeing any of the horizontal half-point rows at top or bottom. The absence of such rows is not absolutely definitive, inasmuch as I have seen E-grill examples in the Drews collection without them. However, I agree with Bill Crowe that in the latest image there do seem to be quite a few grill points oriented horizontally (sideways-X pattern). Finally, though it is not lit well enough to be sure, there seems to be some kind of vertical ridge effect running parallel to the array on its right side. If that could be established as a column of vertical half points, that would cinch the identity of the grill as a Z-grill. Nonetheless, this one is a good candidate, and you would do well to submit it for expert inspection and certification.

It is an "E" grill as sure as it is going to rain like hell in Florida this weekend.