France - Napoleon 1860, Maury #14ii - With Unlisted Fond Ligne Variety

I finally find myself working on the classic French - my favorites !
I could need some specialist information about this stamp:



France, Maury 14II, (1860).

My scanner is unfortunately very poor so the image does the stamp no justice, making the variety a bit difficult to see on the image. In real life it's easy to spot that this stamp has the appearance of horizontally lined background in the medallion, 'Fond ligne' in French, most prominent in front of the emperors forehead.

My Maury catalog, Timbres des France (2016) - does not list a fond ligne variety for this stamp. However, I see that lots of similar stamps with fond ligne variety are listed on ebay, many indicating a value 50 E. My question is - Where do they find this information? Are other catalogs listing more details than Maury? My understanding was that Maury is the best reference for France, but I might be mistaken.

Hi; Well the "fond ligné" belongs in the category (varieties)that's why it is not in a catalog.
Your stamp shows a weak example of this.As far as the 50euro cotation ,that is just a very arbitrary and does not mean much.It may play a role if the stamp is mint or of a higher value,in the photo below. The Varieties include broken frames missing things here and there.Some people try too plate these stamps.Link ,if you don't already have it.
http://planchage-timbres.fr/index.php

@perf12 - thanks for chiming in

Well - not entirely correct - 'fond ligne' varieties are indeed listed in my Maury for several other Napoleons and Ceres. I agree my example is weak, but it is much more prominent in reality than on the image in this thread. Anyway, maybe the fond ligne tendencies for these stamps were not significant to be included in the Maury, while it was more distinct and therefore included in Maury for #16, 30, 50-58.?

Anyway - my questions remains unanswered - "Where do they find this information (catalog value for fond ligne for no.14) ? Are other catalogs listing more details than Maury?"
Maybe the answer is that there is a specialized catalogs for the classics

This is Yvert's more specialised catalogue, although I think its main virtue is the beautiful illustration!

https://www.yvert.com/A-185193-le-s...-france.aspx

Some other "fond ligné" vertical varieties.I went through the last Ceres auction and I didn't see one Empire stamp with these varieties.








horizontal

GeoffHa - wow, 400 pages for the years until 1900, that catalog should have room for details! Do you - or anyone else - own this specialised catalog?

Perf12 - that's some very nice examples of 'fond ligne' . Including examples off more stamps that are not listed in Maury with this variety. Question still remains where - and if - one can find these varieties listed in any catalog?
Btw- thanks for the interesting link you sent earlier about plating. That kind of peculiar work is not for a general WW collector...I admire anyone with that kind of patience ! I'm satisfied with trying to figure out all the shades, paper color shades, varieties and postmarks...

I do, but, for various reasons, haven't used it much yet as other priorities have intervened. I'd be intersted in perf's views, but my initial sense was that it is a beautifully presented volume, with pictures if amazing stamps drawn from the postal museum archive, but lacks the minute attention to detail that one would find in, say, a Gibbons volume covering the same period for British stamps.

Well,I collect france up too 1860 & that's all.I don't even have a
specialized catalog.I can find almost everything on the net now.As for the varieties I don't look for particular types unless they present
themselves and the stamp has an interesting cancel on cover.
There are some things difficult; for instance forgeries of YT.18,there is no real web site that treats this stamp in detail.Plating the first
Ceres also lacks info on the web.Early USA stamps are well ahead in terms of accessible detailed info on the web.

perf12 - wow, you've chosen to limit yourself to only the true classics of France - I've never heard of that kind of specializing before, yet that's a very interesting way of collecting Sounds tempting to only spend time with these iconic stamps



Yes, I've noticed! Even our good friend in Denmark (at stampforgeries.com) has not yet covered this subject. I actually raised a thread about a forgery of this very stamp some time back https://www.stampcommunity.org/topi...PIC_ID=45936 because I could not find a useful site, just like you're saying.

Anyway, as you are probably much more experienced on these than I am - maybe you would not mind to have a look at my only example of #18 - do you think it is genuine?



I'am quite positive myself, but not fully confident. Sorry for the poor scan, cant do any better while I am offshore.

My ancient Yvert specialized (1975) has a section listing and pricing the fond ligné varieties, both vertical and horizontal. All values of the imperf Napoleon III non lauré have both varieties including both types of the 20c.

@perf12
[quote][/Hi; Well the "fond ligné" belongs in the category (varieties)that's why it is not in a catalog.quote]

In Maury 2016, # 1-15 do not mention the "fond ligné"

@hy-brazil
[quote][/My ancient Yvert specialized (1975) has a section listing and pricing the fond ligné varieties, both vertical and horizontal. All values of the imperf Napoleon III non lauré have both varieties including both types of the 20c.quote]

So, who is right ? Blaamand.....should we change catalog ??

hy-brasil - thanks! My query in the OP solved then, perfect!

I was once informed that Maury is the best reference for France - supposed to be more advanced than Yvert - but now it seems I should consider to get an Yvert Specialised as well. Guess each catalog has their strengths.

geoffHa - what kind of details do you consider missing in your Yvert?

@Renden - good to have you in the discussion!


he he - well, I believe Yvert know what their talking about, and for some reason Maury did not include these varieties. For other details Maury might include stuff that Yvert does not include (?). I suggest we not necessarily change catalog - but get the Yvert specialized in addition - and we should be suitably armed

Having only 12 of these "old Frenchmen stamp",guys I do not think it is worth the expenditure to buy "another catalogue" - I will stick with Maury and my booklet Le grand nuancier des timbres classiques de France Cérès et Napoléon (for color id)........and borrow your copy !

The only link with relative info is this one "Calves".The pics are
too small but some indications.The problem is that some forgeries have the real characteristics..These are not Spiro.These are difficult stamps!
https://www.timbres-experts.com/blo...ter-un-faux-
forgeries:



Real ones; I'ts important too check the back.Most of the time the cancel
should show traces of oil around the dot's or squares.Sometimes if the cancel was applied lightly they may be absent.

Thanks for the lien-link, perf12 ! Did visit this link and easy to read (I am French Canadian)-