1c 1851 Plate 1-Late Stamps

84-85R1L

This was fun because I plated it using only spacing and alignment and dingles. I confirmed the plating with the mats and scans of these positions. The photo on ebay showed the lower right corner turned up. I released it and now the dot on 85 shows. Tada!

Very nice pair. Those two stamps sure are real close to each other. That is odd. It was nice of the guide dot to hang in there.

The gap between the 4R and 5R columns is the only column gap less than 1/2 mm on Plate 1. It measures 3/8 mm.

The 5R column is just slightly higher than the 4R column, so when you see two stamps that close together, it is a good cue to look at those columns first.

Here is one that I would like to bring back for reconsideration. First things that I notice is that it is a "B" relief with dingle which would make it a ninth row stamp of plate 1 late or plate 2. I would propose that the position is 83R1L. There are very few marks to go by for that position. Mainly the recuts which are not clear here. Doporto indicates two spot at upper right as possible plate marks (as shown in image below). First stamp in the image is from the full sheet. The next image shows the ends of the background as they touch the portrait. Would this be a good way to determine positions? The dark violet arrow shows 2 small diagonal lines which the other sheet image shows.

The 83R1L is about as close as I could get it too. The 88L2 has a lot going for it tho.

Here is a possibility for the another stamp, position 91R2.
There is a dot under "E" that is a close match.
I am looking beyond the faint dingle it has as maybe not a 9th row stamp.
What do you guys think? Does the presence of a dingle eliminate all bottom row stamps since they could not have been touched with an A relief? Or could it be an anomaly?

Just a suggestion - this stamp will take some time to study, which I don't have now -- but why are you so convinced its a B relief ?

The bottom of this stamp is a dead-on A relief.

I have to wonder if you look closely at the top ornaments - what you can see, if you won't find that its really an A relief at top as well, but the margin impinges just in the wrong places to make an easy ID of that a bit hard.

I am still looking at the second one above. The one above is 91R2 as no other images have a similar dot below "E".

Here is another stamp that I am looking at, recently acquired. Very few plating marks, however, it appears to have a double recut top. There are only 4 positions that are double recut at top, 51L1L, 60L1L, 71L1L, and 77L1L. This stamp looks like none of the four stamps. There is also a line above "OS" of "POSTAGE". Am I imagining the second recut line? Opinions appreciated.

jaxom, I do not think there are two top recuts. As your example photos show, the inner top recuts are normally quite dark and distinct.

dudley is correct. Your stamp is recut once only, at top and bottom.

That darker arc that you are seeing is actually on the die proof. On later impressions, like this, it shows up better.

Someone had a very late impression stamp they showed me once, where the line above PO was so strong, it had to be recut. After carefully studying the die proof and stamp impressions over time, it is clear to me that simple plate wear exacerbates this appearance. On late impressions, the shallow lines disappear somewhat, and you get a "whiter" printing as a result. The deeper recessed areas then show a much stronger contrast with the other areas than they used to, when the shallow lines were better defined. It makes this look recut, since it happens to be in an area that often got recut.

Can I get some assistance with this one? Top cut off, bottom doesn't look recut to me. But I'm still thinking type IV. Anyone want to jump in?

Yes, that's a Ty IV, #9, Relief "A", recut once at top and once at bottom.

That's the most common recut configuration on the plate.
All "A" reliefs on the plate were recut at top and bottom, each, at least once.

Thanks for the confirmation. I find this some of the hardest stuff to figure out.

Here is one that I was able to plate in less than 5 minutes after scanning it. The rust marks are all over. It was sold to me as a #7. It is actually #9, plate position 95L1L. It is obviously a bottom row stamp. My first choice was 94L1L. When it did not match, 95L1L was the second one I checked. The rust marks match exactly.



This next one I had originally thought was 89R1L because of the weak bottom line but when I got a close look at the lower right corner, the guide dots were not there. I searched all B relief from plate 1 late except for the bottom row positions as there is a stamp below this one. The match turned out to be 90R1L.

Hi Everyone... a real newbie to this forum. I must say I am tremendously impressed with the expertise, kindness, attention to detail, yes, even passion for the subject that is shown by each of you. The vast knowledge demonstrated by this group is invaluable and wonderful to behold really.It is unusual in most endeavors. The willingness to assist with advice and references is heartwarming. I have been a classics collector for almost 80 years and have never had an inkling as to how fascinating the plating of this stamp can be. This thread has created a new urge to learn more.

I have been wondering of late what more I can do to enhance my own classics collection and help to fill my time. It is apparent, though at my age it may be very difficult, that learning some of the finer points of plating, particularly the 1c Franklin of which I have many, would be a worthwhile endeavor to continue my interest in the hobby.

Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, particularly to those who are documenting in picture form, the results of their combined efforts. I am so pleased to have found this great treasure. Soon after the beginning of the thread I downloaded the Neinken pdf from the USPCS site and read the first 9 chapters. It is a tough slog but the content and comments found here have helped greatly in getting a tiny handle on some of the matters at hand. I find it difficult to believe I have failed to delve into this subject in my many years of collecting.

Many, many thanks again to each of you.

Mac

P.S. Question - Where does one begin? Determine the Type? Check the plates for that Type? Begin by learning the particular traits and signs for the various Types? So many questions... Are there any simple answers?