US 85e Z Grill Newly Acquired

I've owned an 85B for many years and now, I recently purchased this 85E so the only possible remaining Z grill I might buy someday is the 85C. Grills A, D and F are only dreams. Centering is decent for this issue. Visible value reducing issues are the heavy pen cancel and some short perfs. I have not checked for faults in watermark fluid as yet.

Grill: 11x14 mm, 13x18 points, horizontal ridges. Horizontal ridges are clearly seen on the back where the pen cancel bled through the grill ridges.

On my computer the paper color is not accurate in either image. The face is too white and the back is not white enough. True color is closer to the white of the back image than it is to the face image.

It looks like an "E" grill to me.

No way to tell from this scan, since the ridges are not clear enough.

yes a better scan would help. Also a comparison with another 12c, as the Z grill stamp has a specific dark black color vs. the normal stamp. If I look at your grill I can imagine it being a Z grill because of the 18 horizontal rows and the incomplete vertical row at the right. But it's really difficult to tell from this picture.

Thank you stamperix for your comments on horizontal and vertical grill points. I was unaware of the black color differences. Here is a comparison with another 12 cent.

I fully understand that a certificate must be issued to verify this stamp. Never the less, there is no way I'd spend the money to do so if everyone says "no way". So far I have 2 doubters (term used in a positive sense) and one maybe. I have had some doubts on the ridges myself but I am pretty sure it is a Z grill and if you will bear with me, I'll explain why.
I understand that the ridges are not easily seen on the first post so below are some images scanned at 2400 dpi that might help. The majority of ridges on the stamp are indiscernible even with the higher dpi.
If you look between the right foot of the purple R and left side of the N the pen cancel shows a horizontal black line on two points. The black line is cancel ink absorbed by the ridge. Also below the foot of the T, an uncanceled point and several pen canceled points show horizontal lines. The width between the open end of the "v" in the corners of the point is longer horizontally than it is vertically. That seems to indicate a horizontal ridge.

Leaving the topic of horizontal ridges, I'll describe other features. 85E is the first 12 cent with a grill. That leaves only Z, E or F grills as possibilities. An F grill is easily ruled out due to its 9mm horizontal width. Z and E both have 11mm width.

Z grill 11mm x 14mm 13-14 x 18 points
E grill 11mm x 13mm 14 x 15-17 points

My stamp measures 11mm horizontal and 14mm vertical. That puts it in the Z grill camp. As for points I have 13 plus an incomplete vertical columns. (Incomplete as per stamperix's post.) I inverted the scan of the back image so the incomplete is now on the left. Whether 13 or 14 columns, I'm still in the Z camp. As for rows I have 18 which only the Z grill has on the 12 cent stamp. So, another plus for mine being a Z grill.

The two 12 cent stamps show a more intense black on my stamp but the word is out on my opinion until stamperix comments again.



Next scan is in grayscale; an experiment to see if the grill was sharper.

hello, I am not the longterm grill expert like others here in the forum so I hope you will get help from them. but for me the rectangles of the grill points are indeed horizontal, some ridges appear as well, and the deep black color as well as the vertical incomplete row would also say "z grill". but after all it's only possible to give a 100% answer while looking at it in person. maybe you could make a sharp photo under oblique light to see the rows and ridges better.

and about the certification: nobody knows this better than you if you need it. it also depends on how much you paid for the stamp and what you want to do with the stamp in the future.

It isn't among the previously 38 copies of PF certed 85E Z grills. Although your copy does seem to be within the color range of those 38.
Oh page 1 of 38
http://pfsearch.org/pfsearch/pf_grd...tFirst=First

The correct response seems evident here: send the stamp to the PF for certification. There is sufficient evidence to justify this...

Please post the results!!

I just contacted PF on how to proceed with a certification. Thank you all, each and everyone for your comments and opinions.

I just wrote a comment about the paper mesh and design sizes in another thread:
https://goscf.com/t/58961#517847

Also if I look at other Z grills of the 12c, the circle around the head always appears "higher" at the non-grill stamps, like in your both examples you can see really a difference.

The giveaway on this grill is the column of incomplete vertical ridge points. The E-grill has rows of partial points, but they are only ever horizontal. This column is a fingerprint for the Z-grill. Since all the other dimensions (by count, not measurement) line up, you should be very satisfied when your cert comes back. Since there is a small horizontal tear in the upper left (viewed from the front) and several short or missing perfs, you should submit it for consideration as a "distressed" stamp. That will lower the fee considerably.

Littleriverphil, there are over 300 genuine used 85E PF certs.

Thanks essayk for the "distressed" tip. Also in reference to a tear, are you referring to the fifth from top perf hole next to the "U"? I noticed that too in the image but after checking and double checking I cannot find a tear. Could it be a sealed tear or some other issue such as a tiny light crease?

PF asked me to send a scan of the back, which I did, and a few days later advised me to send in the stamp. I suppose they are satisfied enough that it might be an 85E or I'd think they probably would have said don't bother. Anyways, I can't send it to PF until April when I make my next trip to the USA. The Guatemalan PO is still for all practical purposes barely functional.
When I get results back in May, I will update this post.

Quigngt, I have certed 85B, 79, 83 and several 85's.....I'm willing to bet $5 with any of the naysayers that it IS a Z-grill.

Ridges, as you mentioned early, in the black ink look horizontal to me...

Hopefully congrats are due. Good luck! Ray