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Suggestions For Dealing With "Problem Dealers" Or Those With No Moral Compass

 
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
6433 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   10:00 am  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add revenuecollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
With all the recent discussion about Anthony's, Apfelbaum, et al., I sat down and went back through some of the purchases I have made from dealers with, shall we say, "questionable ethics", thinking of approaches I have taken, and whether the purchases were successful or not.

Some of these concepts will seem like common sense, but it doesn't hurt to compile them into a single post.

First and foremost, the easiest solution: Don't buy from them. Don't support dealers that have established histories of ethical issues.

Of course that's easier said than done when they have something that would fit nicely in your collection. I've said before: if I refused to do business with every dealer (including show dealers) that exhibited dodgy characteristics or had reports of offering fakes, overstating values, misrepresenting stamps, etc., the number of dealers I could do business with would be VERY small, and my collection would be a lot smaller than it is.

At the end of the day, the choice to buy or not buy from any given dealer is a personal one. If it's an item I want, I don't care who I'm buying it from... but that's my choice.

Ok, with that out of the way, ASSUMING that you decide to purchase from one of these dealers...

My recommendations/philosophies are more geared to the buyer of bulk lots and collections rather than single stamps, but many of the same considerations apply. Also, my assumption is that we're talking about online sales, where you are buying based upon a description and/or images rather than in-person sales at shows, live auctions, etc.

1. Know what you're buying. If you're a novice or beginner, stay away. Only tread in these waters if you have knowledge and experience with the material in question, enough to know whether items are legit without the need of expertization.

2. Ignore all superlatives. Rare, scarce, superb, gem, spectacular, once-in-a-lifetime, etc. They are meaningless puffery. Don't fall for them.

3. In conjunction with #2, do your own research. Don't rely on seller claims of scarcity or population. Use the SAN archive, APS and PF cert archives, searching current and more importantly completed listings on ebay and other venues. See what things sell for and how many there are out there. Are there dealers of this same type of merchandise with online storefronts? How much are they selling items for? When it comes to population claims, take them with many grains of salt. Aldrich, for example frequently makes up population numbers as he goes... and people fall for them.

4. Ignore claims of value by the seller. "Total catalog value" claims from these sellers are frequently inflated or outright made up. My approach is that if I cannot justify the asking price based upon ONLY what I can see, move on. If a seller says "$10,000 Scott" but I can only determine $6,000 from what I see in the images, then my calculations are done based upon the $6,000 (obviously taking into consideration the possibility of undisclosed faults) and the $10,000 claim is meaningless. Don't impute value to what is not visually shown. In the unlikely event it turns out to actually be more than $6,000, then that's bonus. From the sellers in question, I've had it wind up both ways: well short of advertised value/quantity, and also above simply because they didn't know what they had.

5. Always assume items are the cheaper of multiple catalog numbers that visually appear the same, until proven otherwise. If it's watermark X vs. Y or perforation A vs. B, assume the cheaper of the two.

6. Do NOT rely on images for making determination of value based upon color. Between the camera/cellphone/scanner taking the picture, the color temperature of the lighting, and the accuracy of your monitor, don't assume that the color in ANY image is accurate.

7. Protect yourself financially. If the seller accepts PayPal, then fund that PayPal payment with a credit card. Not debit card. Not bank account. Not PayPal balance. Why? You then have two layers of protection in the event things go sideways. If PayPal denies your claim, you can then do a chargeback through your credit card company.

8. Don't assume anyone has your back. I know that this will be an unpopular opinion in certain quarters, but always assume that if things go wrong, neither the APS nor the ASDA is going get you your money back. Organization memberships IMO are simply "Look at Me!" badges, nothing more (and yes, I say that as someone who includes both APS and ARA logos in my ebay listings).

9. When a lot arrives, go through it immediately (like same or next day) and in detail, to make sure you got what you paid for. Check for accuracy, quantity, and condition. I have printable ledger sheets that I created for stamp lot assessments so I can go through and quickly document what is in a collection and the total catalog value.

10. If putting something on extension, get the seller/dealer agreement to that extension in writing, i.e., email is better than phone, preferably before purchase. Who pays the cert cost? Is it only above/below a certain value/price? Who pays in the event of a declined opinion (which is not the same as a negative opinion)?

11. Before purchasing, read the fine print on returns (return period, who pays return shipping, restocking fee, etc.). Make sure you have done your assessment and are content with the merchandise well before the expiration of the return period, thus allowing for things to digest before you run out of time. Sometimes the way you feel about a purchase a few days later isn't the same as the one you initially had upon receipt.

12. If you make enough returns (either in number or in purchase price), expect to be blacklisted/blocked. These dealers bank on throwing enough cr*p at the wall and most of it sticking. Returns upset their business model.

And lastly, know yourself. If an item/lot not being EXACTLY what it is claimed to be is likely to upset you, then buying from these types of dealers is NOT for you. Personally, I enjoy the thrill of the hunt and finding the diamond in the rough, so I'm willing to gamble (within reason) and factor these aspects into what I'm willing to pay. It also means that sometimes I will strike out. I realize that and accept it. Not everyone enjoys this same experience.

If all of the above doesn't fit in your comfort zone, then by all means, you should probably stay away from the dealers in question (I would post an extensive list of who I feel falls into this category, but the last time I did that people complained to the moderators that I had one or more of their favorites in the list so the list got removed).

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
791 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   10:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 1typesetter to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Personally, I enjoy the thrill of the hunt and finding the diamond in the rough, so I'm willing to gamble (within reason) and factor these aspects into what I'm willing to pay. It also means that sometimes I will strike out. I realize that and accept it.


I agree. I've said the same thing in the past. You can't buy a lottery ticket and expect to win every time.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2545 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   10:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chasa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Good points all rev... One you might have missed being a revenue specialist is: never believe their claims that stamps are never hinged (NH). There is always a good chance their offerings have some trace of hinging, or if not, a complete fabrication of the gum. If you pay a premium for NH, be aware that this is a prime opportunity to get ripped off. Even if you are good at checking the backs, you will be safer with certified stamps or a 100% reliable dealer (there are even a few on ebay).
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
3490 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   10:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Save any images of the item(s) in question.
They may be taken down after the sale, and individual items in a large lot might mysteriously go missing. It helps to have the original image.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
6433 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   10:48 am  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Save any images of the item(s) in question.
They may be taken down after the sale, and individual items in a large lot might mysteriously go missing. It helps to have the original image.


Good point. I forgot about that. For all online stamp purchases, I always save the entire web page, not just the images, for future reference. You can usually do a File > Save from any browser which will save the HTML page as well as all linked images and CSS so you can then open the page on your computer long after it is purged from the online platform. I have an archive of all the listings pages of all my ebay purchases going back 15+ years.

Active content and external links from that page will not work, but you'll get the page itself.

Note: If you are saving an ebay page to local storage, and the images are NOT in the body of the listing, but rather only the preview area at top left, the only images that will be saved are the small thumbnail images. In order to save the high-resolution images, you need to display them and then one by one right-click and save the individual images.

This is also an area where a more professional screen capture tool like SnagIt can come in handy, since it then organizes an image library by date and software application. I use SnagIt if there are web pages that won't save properly.

Lastly, be sure to save images and pages BEFORE you purchase, since depending on the web site, listings may disappear as soon as they are sold.
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Edited by revenuecollector - 03/23/2018 10:49 am
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4648 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   10:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bujutsu to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I guess we can just sum this up with the two famous words, 'buyer beware'.

Interesting posting.

Chimo

Bujutsu
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Bedrock Of The Community
12569 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   11:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent post Rev. I would add that if shopping on ebay do not let high positive feedback influence your level of trust with a seller.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
707 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   1:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dutchman1948 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
How would anyone deal with international sales if not as described and return costs are outrageous, or just not buy internationally.

I am in Canada and have purchased items from the US and was told to just return them and costs prohibit that.
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Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1951 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   1:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jkelley01938 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I keep a list of problem vendors offline and avoid them. I've learned that there is considerable competition in the hobby so there is really no need to go to therm.

Jack Kelley
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Pillar Of The Community
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United States
1819 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   4:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The main thing I see missing is avoiding dealers with known scams. A stamp could be the real deal, but if the dealer is using multiple accounts to force the bids higher you are being scammed. See every account that's part of the Cartel.
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
3282 Posts
Posted 03/23/2018   6:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Great advice revenuecollector, thank you for posting.

I can only offer this - make sure you get what you pay for with regards to shipping costs. I've taken ebay sellers to task for charging me for Registered Post and then sending by ordinary post. This can add up to the total costs when you are buying from overseas.
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Valued Member
United States
89 Posts
Posted 10/27/2018   11:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txphl to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
And finally found this post, which pretty much sums up what I was looking for. I guess I should have narrowed my search terms - or browsed the topics a bit closer.
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