1c 1851 Plate 12 Stamps

Jaxom100 - I was in on the bidding too but sadly, like you, came up short with a bid of 305 I think...or something like that. I agree with your plating. I too had it as 87-97-98L12. Would love to know know how high the bidder was willing to go. I was a bit hesitant about the shape of the perfs on 98L12 and the glue stain? on 87-97 left edge.

Caper, I was also concerned about that edge and the condition of the perforations there. My concern is more preserving the stamps than the envelope. The perfs at bottom right are short on 98L12. I would hope that the stain would wash off, some anyway. I was hoping that the stain was something other than glue. I plated the group by the dot in orn "Z" of 98L12. It is unique plating mark. I stared at the group for a couple hours Friday night with no luck. Then Saturday morning, it was on my screen when I got up. I looked right at the dot. Found the position in less than 10 mins later.

Removing stamps from a cover this old is always worth thought. Removing the stamps is not an easy decision. I bought a few with #11 stamps that I liked for the centering or other reasons with the intent to remove them from cover. Yet, they still sit there on cover. I feel it is best to get other's opinions on a cover like this one. I like hearing the different points of view. I had not thought of paper preservation. I have some old stampless covers/sheets that need some tlc there.

Jaxom, ditto on the dot. I noticed it after a bit of study on pos 98 and could only find 2 positions in Neinken with similar dots in that location. The rest came together like a jig-saw puzzle with the other two attached positions.

Although I generally reserve final judgement on a stamps condition on-cover until I examine it closely, my initial thoughts were this group were crying to be removed from the envelope and offending substance creeping into the stamps chemistry. Dudleys comment about the loss of value of removing them from the cover, though technically correct, would be secondary to the preservation of the stamps themselves, which in this case affected the price I was willing to pay. I have access to some highly qualified museum art conservationists, and specialists in paper preservation within that community, and rely on their recommendations at times. They have the equipment to analyze substances like what is/has invaded the stamps above and offer advice on how to either eliminate the substance, render it inert, or make the move to separate it from the envelope. It is even possible to remove the stamps, treat the envelope and reattach the stamps. One would certainly need to be gentle with this valuable threesome whichever choice is made.

Of course. The stamps can always be hinged or glued back on at a later date if that is desired, and the cover is cleaned up. Just don't throw away the cover.

I picked up a nice #20 from plate 12 today.
I have never seen the designs touch each other like they do at the top of this stamp.
Since it was not burnished, I think I should start with the odd left plate.
What are your opinions?

Nice stamp. Plate 12 B relief clearly.

There is a C relief above it, so you know its not the second row. That helps.

I would just walk through the positions one by one, leveraging whatever scans you can find on the internet in addition to the book.

This is a good illustration of what Toppan Carpenter were up against with the large highly 'ornamented' design of the 1c stamp. This shows why they trimmed the design on other plates - to make room for other stamps, and also perforations.

Plate 12, and 11 look like last gasp, hastily thrown together plates. Maybe they made them in order to put together some kind of hasty bid for a contract that maybe they knew they weren't going to get. If they really were serious, you'd think they would have put more care into it. Of course, the civil war was around the corner, so I suppose that may have had some effect we don't know about.

The scan is kind of fuzzy of this stamp. It looks like there is gum extending beyond the perfs on the left, in particular.

I agree the image may not be clear enough to plate.
I will post a good scan when I get it in.
The stamp being under a type C does eliminate second row.
Does the stamps at the "line" have perforations?
If not, that will eliminate 6 more positions.
Most that I am looking at are blurred at the top.
None have been clear and touching like this one.

As I said in the thread with the 100L12: "Perforated centerlines were fairly common in the first half of the 1857-61 period but by 1861 was never done."

Unfortunately there appears to be a fairly long tear extending onto Ben's shoulder. Fuzzy scans nearly always benefit the seller more than the buyer.

As an add-on to the centerline perforation commentary: Fake perforations are frequently encountered on the Plate 11 and 12 10R and 1L column positions.

I'm going to guess you meant the 10L and 1R columns, which would straddle the centerline. The 10L stamps, on their right, and the 1R stamps on their left, would be imperforate, and thus, very easy targets for (re)perforation by fraudsters. That's a good point.

The small tear at left was indicated by the seller. I was aware of it and priced it accordingly. Aside from that, I really liked the centering and especially the top showing the full plumes from the C relief above and the fact that it was not blurred attracted me. I thought that most red cancelations were scarce after about 1855.

With regard to red cancels - if red cancels are less common after 1855, which may be possible for domestic mail, it would likely be due to the compulsory pre-payment of postage which was mandated in 1855. I haven't ever thought about that possible side-effect of the act, but it is possible.

The above, however, would only apply to domestic mail. I would argue that foreign mail, particularly out of NYC, ramped up very significantly over the 1850s. The NYC transit markings are often red. There are also the NYC carrier markings, starting in about 1856. They are also often red.

I don't off-hand recognize the cancel on your stamp.

Good guess. I was talking about my other left and right :)

I didn't go out looking for an example of fake perfs on an 1857-61 centerline position stamp but since this CKStamps item was on my watch list and I had to take a last look before my bids were entered for the day...

Scott 35 from the 10L column with fake perfs added to natural straight edge at right:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CKStamps-U...352427955479