Dealers? We Don't Need No Stinkin Dealers!

Interesting discussion.

Classic Philatelist,

Some good points and interesting difference in perspective there. I'll try to break some of them down.




Actually, I meant the term "aesthetic collector" as one who collects (primarily or preferentially) based upon visual appeal, rather than scarcity or philatelic usage, although for certain items, both aspects may play a part, i.e., something both rare and beautiful.

For example, one who collects socked-on-the-nose cancels or cancels in contrasting colors could be considered an aesthetic collector. Personally, and this is just my opinion, the soundness of a stamp is a different category or tier of preference. Does that make sense?




Is it "broken"... or simply a new economy based upon sourcing that historically wasn't available and thus didn't have an impact on traditional dealer models? One could make the argument that pricing has been propped up due to limited supply, and that's no longer the case... but that doesn't necessarily apply to all collecting areas/niches. For certain areas of collecting, ebay and other online venues have driven prices up due to increased competition. However, the latter is dwarfed heavily by the former.




There's no doubt that ebay as a platform has major issues from a selling standpoint, and is extremely biased towards the buyer. I'll leave the arguments as to whether this is a good or bad thing for another time and place. I think that opinions will vary greatly depending on whether you are a buyer or seller. As someone whose activity on ebay is 60% buyer and 40% seller, I see both sides of the issue.

Buyer feedback is only one small part of the problem, in my opinion. Of greater impact on sellers is the constantly shifting goalposts and metrics, and what ebay considers a "good seller". The constant changes in listing requirements, obfuscating search results, and eliminating or drastically changing functionality that people rely upon in a drunken reel of change for changes sake solely to appease shareholders, is worse than ever.

However... as much as you might loathe " ebay the business" or " ebay the platform", there are no good alternatives out there for small to medium sellers. Neither Hipstamp nor Delcampe have any meaningful amount of traffic or sell-through compared to ebay. Sure, they might for certain niches or collecting focii, but as a general rule it isn't even close.

"Good dealers" (since we're apparently differentiating between good and bad) are likely to have success across multiple channels, simply because their mindset and business approach is a positive one. Unfortunately, and this is an area where I actually agree with the criticism of ebay, because there is no seller vetting (which is not likely to ever happen), it allows the bad apples to rise to the top through either sheer transactional volume (which ebay lauds) or through manipulation of ebay's processes and systems.

But what is the REALISTIC alternative? That's the problem. What is reasonable to expect a business like ebay to undertake. I've read countless pie-in-the-sky claims that ebay should hire a team of philatelists to vet listings, cuz well "that's the right thing to do!!!". Not viable. Not realistic. You're only fooling yourself.

So if ebay isn't the answer for dealers/sellers, then what is? What out there will remove the shackles of draconian oversight and yet will bring the same level of traffic to your door? Sure, creating your own online storefront is one option, but that takes a LONG time to gain momentum. It's not a quick fix. Selling on ebay and then including flyers or coupons for your own website in every shipment is a method that many dealers use, hoping that over the course of time, people will come to your own storefront of their own volition... but it's not an easy or short-term proposition.

I would also say that ebay has actual driven the price up for some items. I visit the local dealers and pick various worldwide covers for very little and can turn them around for higher prices on ebay. How? Take something like 1930's Thailand used postcards. They have little demand in the upstate New York. Very few if any collectors have interest in them, but you place them on a global market then they move for $20 to $100 each. ebay allows a dealer to reach that part of the globe where there is a demand whereas they would otherwise sit stagnant in another dealer's bargain box.

revenuecollector: You mentioned how some ebay seller use ebay sales to drive traffic to their own website. I recently chatted with the Doubledays (big postal history dealers). They removed all their listings from their own website and placed them on ebay. They tried hard to have ebay buyers come to their website, but with little to no effect.

Revenuecollector, new to the hobby? I just said up there that I have been a philatelist for 42 years. Yes, I am new to the forum, so what I should just sit down, shut up and keep my opinions to myself?

I didn't miss where you were coming from and I did agree with you on one point. But in no way was I condescending. Unless you make your living from selling on E-bay, you do not have the same experience as someone who does. Saying that you are writing primarily as a collector was not me making assumptions. I was going on what you said. You never mentioned before that you were writing from your perspective as a buyer and a seller.

And why does me expressing my opinion and responding and engaging you constitute lecturing? I never said that you are inherently wrong. I actually agreed with your core premise: that E-bay has allowed the amassing of collections at a far faster rate than than ever before. But I did point out the bias in what you wrote. You say that I have an inherent conflict of interest. What conflict would that be? I pay E-bay still, close to $400 a month to be there. I abide by all their dictates and rules. So what conflict of interest do I have? I don't like them because of specific ways in which they have manipulated the free market to deny me the opportunity to successfully grow my business. How would you feel in my shoes? How would you feel when you explain in a forum, politely, what your experience has been and are met with scoffs of "psst yeah, your're just bitter because it didn't work out for you! Of course you don't like E-bay!" I think you would be pretty hurt - especially if you had spent the better part of 2 years trying to figure out what you were doing wrong. Finding out that E-bay has been manipulating the visibility of your items the whole time and having it confirmed is like finding out after 20 years of marriage that your spouse has been cheating on you the whole time. Again, I don't expect to be believed completely and so I will present my evidence in another thread.

I have been a Chartered Accountant for 20 years. In that time I have assisted hundreds of small business clients. If there is one term that I can use to characterize them, it is responsible, empowered self-starter. These people take responsibility for their success generally. You don't go from the comfort and security of a regular paycheck to the uncertainty and risk of small business ownership without having a sense of personal responsibility and ownership, and stay in the game for any length of time. Anyone that has made it to powerseller on E-bay has had to work very hard, and it is a fair bet that when they experience a drop in sales that most, think it is them first, before they even think of blaming anyone else. Why that would not be apparent to many on this forum is beyond me.

So, no, the condescension is not coming from me, nor is the negativity. That last sentence from Revenuecollector is just an ad-hominem attack on me because he doesn't agree with me and can't just say that and leave it alone.

Not at all, but perhaps a less strident tone might be in order. You come off as very combative.

That's pretty accurate, actually.



Jim

Ok, maybe so. For that I am sorry. I am just a very passionate person, who has seen a lot of things over the years that bother me.

I've tried hard to do my part to make the hobby better. Those of my customers who know me and appreciate what I do know that I am not combative. But honestly, there is a "pay you dues" mentality that I see on this board where members like you think that just because you have been on here a long time that your opinions are better than a new member's.

Look at the tone you have taken with me and contrast it with the tone you took with Classicphilatelist. Both of us had negative things to say about E-bay. With him, you spoke to him like an equal. You acknowledged his points and engaged him in a respectful way. You did not do that with me at all. In fact you did exactly what I begged you in my first post not to do. You took snippets of what I said out of context and criticized them in a very dismissive fashion, without really acknowledging that I might, as another intelligent human being have something important and potentially valuable to say.

That is not the first time I have experienced that on this forum. The last time was at the end of February when I weighed in on two other topics and was generally treated very disrespectfully, I guess because there was not enough deference in my tone for your collective liking.

That is how it feels to me so far writing on this forum. I put a lot of effort and thought into my posts and I get a lot of flippant and dismissive comments in addition to some who actually are respectful enough to engage me in a real discussion.

Lots of good thoughts here. Here's my two cents regarding ebay. ebay has always been like a giant flea market. Just like a flea market you can find cheap junk and hidden treasures. There are people trying to rip you off and people there for fun and people there to make an honest living. To me ebay has been a fantastic place to sell. Like the OP I'm a collector first. I started selling just a few years ago and I've built up a nice following on ebay. My business has grown and I'm selling about double this year as I did last year. I'd like to think that's because I try hard to be open and honest. I'll mention all faults, even tiny ones. That's not at all the norm on ebay. There are way too many dealers that just show a scan and say "see scan". So I'd like to think I'm one of those people at the flea market selling the genuine article and such that you won't be disappointed when you get home and examine your purchase more closely.

Unfortunately, like at a flea market, there are too many dealers selling junk, fraudulently representing their product, and even altering stamps to make them appear like rare varieties. It is absolutely a buyer-beware situation. But the market is huge, and so the opportunity is huge. It takes courage to write "tiny sealed tear" on an otherwise beautiful stamp, but I do. I may add a bit of insight like about how this specific stamp is often misidentified, and how you can tell that this one is correct etc.

I also understand that I'm not the ultimate expert on everything and I will make a mistake occasionally. That means accepting returns and making it right if I screw up. It's also a reason that I ask questions here on the forum. I've avoided bad mistakes, by asking questions here and working on my knowledge. The best example was early 20th century US coil stamps about which I knew next to nothing. If I had just listed them as they were cataloged I would have been selling fakes. But by spending the time to learn I found some gems and some trash. It made a huge difference and I was able to feel very comfortable about what I sold and I even made a bit of a nice profit on a couple that I sent in for certification based on what I learned here.

I'd like to think that transparency, education, and clear communication allows people to differentiate between dealers they can trust and those they should avoid.

"See scan for stamp condition" is a bad sign. Full disclosure is my advice.

I'm going to cry "Foul!" here. Please go back and re-read my initial post, which was primarily directed to Classic Philatelist. There was nothing in that post of mine that attacked anyone. It was only once you responded claiming that my opinions were nonsense (see my quotes in my subsequent post) that things got out of hand. You sir, are the one that directed the tone of the discussion downwards, not I.




In my opinion, and it's only my opinion, I think you may be perceiving a difference of opinion as "attacks", and you are responding in kind... in which case we're never going to get anywhere. The Ken Lawrence school of debate doesn't result in constructive conversation (long-timers will know what I'm referring to; my apologies if the reference doesn't mean anything to you).

I appreciate your passion and effort; it's the response to normal give-and-take I question.

Another suggestion, and please feel free to ignore it, as it is just my perspective: Ginormous wall-of-text posts, while thorough, are not as easily digestable nor easy to respond to as shorter topics, and I say that as one who is typically fairly verbose. Message boards are intended to be conversational in both tone and structure. Lengthy missives can frequently not garner the desired response, as they can either be perceived as lecturing or "TL;DR" (contemporary Internetspeak for "Too long, didn't read").

Sometimes introducing ourselves to a new platform or community requires adjusting how we communicate to be the most effective.

Just my 2.7 cents (value adjusted for inflation).

Several years ago, I used to work on assignment in London, England and where possible my visits would coincide with a major stamp fair. I already had suspicions of a dealer who was too good to be true whwn a collector informed me that he was crook.
Many years later, I ran into the collector again and asked him if he could elaborate. And he did. And I was shocked.

I am now in the habit of throwing his name into conversation and there are two reactions. "What a crook!" "what a character!". I suppose it depends what you find funny.
I find that Collecting works best when three aspects of the hobby ...post offices...dealers...collectors...are in harmony. Working for the cpmmon good and there is enough in the pot to satisfy everyone.
Personally I think it can be about attitude. I never really get that established dealers put themselves at the top of the pyramid and are hostile to the folks on ebay.
Ethics exists at all levels....although I am reminded of the time, I told my boss that an accountant told me he had posted some accounts to me. As I told my boss "he is an accountant...he has ethics.
Well never trust a man with ethics.
I am in a good position now. I have 26 stamps on my wants list and a programme for the next few years.
I will only have to deal with dealers (ie two or three dealers) a maximum of 26 times.
FRankly, I will be glad.

I think you all know my thoughts on dealers - as I tend to be flagged as a bit negative in my posts. I do agree with most of what has been said above. I do admit I have bias against dealers, particular when cast against the shadows of the Stolow legal case, rarity gouging and hoarding that I see as well as exploitation of novice collectors including myself looking back over decades particularly in my younger years. I do buy from dealers, as my material is available almost exclusively obtainable from under 10 total sources in the world. I could list the dealers on one hand, and the auctions on the other.

I think I am similar to what revenuecollector described as "aesthetic collector". I, however, focus on modern MNHOG EFO, and specialize in science/space. But the first thing I consider, before centering, grade or other attributes is the striking image as it compares to the normal stamp. I feel lucky to have the rarity in the first place. This is a joy. I feel as though the pursuit of the stamp, including negotiation and banter is part of the process of collecting. To buy something on ebay, I'd need to get my gift cards, use a 15% window of opportunity, and work an offer back and forth. If I had 100k dedicated for stamp collecting, I would not want to just go buy 100k in stamps and stare at them. That doesn't sound fun. Everything about the hunt, the haggle, the snipe, the excitement at my mailbox, the missed delivery receipt, going to the PO sign for my package, being the 2nd highest bidder, you name it - that's collecting stamps to me. Plus - finding this forum of other folks doing the same thing - great information all around. I particularly like threads on revenues, of which I own no stamps, because I never collected them, but find their usages much more interesting than mail. So I am somewhat of "proxy" rev collector, since I don't think I would take on another endeavor outside of my current focus.

When I think of prices in general, of stamps or artwork, I consider them to be ENTIRELY subjective. We're not talking about consumer packaged goods, with MSRP's slapped on by a manufacturer with wholesale, retail and distribution chains. Stamps have no value aside from face. Everything above and beyond standard mail usage is... dare I say - made up.

Economics largely takes over the rest. I have something you want - a Van Gogh - and there is only 1. I can charge 50 million or 100 million. The one person willing to pay the most wins. That person is obviously wealthy. At the other end - I have a Forever stamp which the post office printed 100 Million of, and they will forever be worth 55cents (inflation adjusted)

Everything else is in the middle. It's all within a sliding scale of messy human behavior. Ethics and personal gains can be challenged. But at the end of the day, are we all the best version of ourselves? We can't all have all stamps. That is an impossibility. Business _is_ business. It's not a friend zone. Yes - You can make friends with dealers. But it's most likely a relationship that cannot undermine one fact: A dealer has to get material for less money than they can sell it. A break in this, is a break in profitability, and ultimately viability.

So if a hypothetical widower walks in, and leaves happy selling a collection for $250 that (unknowingly worth $2500), who's fault is it? Or is it a win/win - since both people left happy? My belief is one of honesty and communication and how we feel comfortable in our shoes and lives. If the dealer said that the collection is wonderful and it is probably worth $2500 retail if individually cataloged which would take 100 man hours, or maybe listed at auction with an estimate of $750-1000, bidding would probably start at $400. Because of that, and premiums associated with listing, at least 15-20%, handling and delivery that's the best I could do. If you want to talk about breaking the collection up, consignments or other solutions we can which can potentially garner you more money, but realize a significant amount of research and work handling the collection will add up in terms of cost for servicing the collection in smaller chunks and could take longer to sell. Now then it's not a screw job. The dealer explained the climate of stamp dealing. He was transparent.

Now I walk into the establishment. I see the stamp collection fresh on the counter. I tell him I'll give him $1000 for the collection without turning a page. Surprised by the quick turnaround time - He tells me they're worth over 2-3k. See how the tune changed? This is dealing. This is the way to make money and stay in business. Now the dealer is ready to highlight all the items in the collection that make it worth OVER 2000 and that $2500 is probably a fair price. He has a live customer.

As a buyer/collector
1. I don't care what the seller paid for a stamp (I don't care if he got it for .20cents in an accumulation or $2000 at auction 10 years ago.) That is irrelevant to current value. Stamp values change over time, and if you bought a stamp for $1000 and it's now $500, I'm not paying $1000 because you need to recoup your initial investment.
2. I don't care what price the catalog says - Everything is a calculation/estimation. Private catalog companies derive stamp prices from dealers. Until that changes, its a guide not a bible.
3. I don't care what the auction says the estimated range is (again its an estimate)
4. I don't care what rent, or overhead is for a dealer (dealers have to solve their costs on their prices, not mine)
5. I don't care about Supporting the dealer, specifically paying more for something to simply keep people in business. This is not good business and rewards bad businessmen/women
6. I don't care what the last item sold for.
7. When I make an offer, its not an insult. It's business. You can choose to ignore, deny, or counter. I much prefer denies, or even full price counters. Nothing is personal in business land.
8. Dealers must stand behind their wares, particularly where expertization challenges conditions of sale.

Ok, fair enough. But there are some topics that simply don't lend themselves out to short posts. The danger here is that if I keep it short and I don't explain my position I get told that I didn't provide any evidence for my position.

I don't perceive simple disagreement as an attack, I really don't. But what I have found is that when I express an opinion that goes against the grain, the disagreement can get very personal. I had someone tell me last month in a very condescending way that I didn't understand math and statistics when I tried to explain that my sales patterns on E-bay were too close together for them to represent a natural pattern, exhibiting natural, random, statistical variation. I had pointed out that I have spent my adult life as an accountant, analyzing the patterns in numbers and relationships That's how we spot fraud in financial statements. Yet, despite that, the person telling me that chose to completely ignore and discount my credentials and essentially told me that I didn't know what I was talking about.

Personally I don't understand how you can invalidate someone's experience and call it a simple disagreement. I'm not saying that you did that, but other people on here have. E-bay sellers invalidating my experience as a seller and saying that they have been doing well, without realizing that their experience is different because they use mostly auctions, whereas I sell at retail is an example of this.

I get that walls of text can be long and difficult to digest. But some things just don't lend themselves out to 2 or 3 sentences, or 1 or 2 short paragraphs.

It is fine to say "I disagree". It is when a person adds something like "Well clearly you just don't understand math and statistics" that a simple disagreement becomes an attack. If you go back over my posts, you will not see a single inflammatory remark from me or a single insult.

When I was 12 or 13, I was anti-dealer. The reason was pretty simple -- dealers wanted 'too much' money for their stamps. At the stamp club the rule of thumb was to sell a stamp for 20 or 25% of catalog value, but a dealer wanted maybe 50-70%!! And to make matters worse, the dealer had the stamp you really, really wanted!

Roll on a couple of decades, and I return to the hobby after some time in the real world. I realize many things -- that dealers need to make a living, that most stamp collectors selling their swaps at 20% of cat aren't costing their time etc etc. Suddenly my animosity towards dealers vanishes. Not that I am ever going to spend 70% of cat for a stamp!

Maybe if we had clubs where people bought and sold other things, from groceries to clothes, we could all hate all storekeepers. As it is most of us stick to hating dealers in used cars. And stamps.

I don't understand this statement. You are well within your power to create new markets and grow your business in new and exciting ways that do not involve ebay. You are coming out and essentially saying, that you hate the game. Complaining that's where the sellers are, or complaining about their algos, or complaining that TOS favor buyers. It's something you HAVE to put up with.

No you don't HAVE to. You CHOSE this. You can CHOOSE NOT TO.

YOU CAN:
Reinvent the market.
Think different.
Be a visionary.

You are currently attempting a copy-cat business model of buying stamps cheap and looking to flip online with good customer service. No innovation here. Your expectations need to be in-line with what you are attempting. You have dissected the tactical business operation in great detail. But the strategy is weak. If you are interested in building a new marketplace, because you seem to be complaining about existing ones, then go that business route. But be warned - Hipstamp (among others) is doing quite a lot of the right things and solidified its space. I believe it's slowly chipping away from ebay business as stamp collectors need richer content online. Entering that market is also crowding.

There were a few mentions by @51studebaker that highlighted innovation that can really be a differentiator that noone is effectively using. I think that is where we will see the next generation of dealer come from.


FootNote: I am not trying to be combative or contrarian or a troll in any of my posts. I am simply giving you my humble opinion, and what you wish to do with it, is all good. Just try to be kind to others through life.

Wow, I leave you lot alone for a couple hours and the wheels come off. ><

First, I think there has been a lot of good discussion here. Let's focus on that.

I am liking this definition of the "aesthetic collector" more and more. I am also convinced it is different from the "pretty collector". So this is just one we can add into list.

I think (innocently), some of the things I've mentioned about ebay have been viewed differently than I had intended. I'm not complaining about buyers at all... I'm targeting the issues that make ebay as a platform, diminished. The things I have suggested aren't major policy. They aren't even expensive to implement. But as long as they stay where they are, they make it very hard to sell lower value material, if the seller wants to have any ability to protect their reputation. This was what "hurt" me most, was we had bent over backward to ensure out listings were accurate (we differentiate ourselves by that fact). To get no support from ebay by hiding behind the "what is the tracking number", when we have other very solid proof that the feedback is bogus, they wouldn't accept that. That's just really poor policy.
We've never had to take an item back. We have always worked out issues with buyers. We've even sent replacements without requiring any other proof. If we feel a customer is ripping us off, we may block them from buying further, but we have always worked out real issues with buyers. No questions asked. It's when people jump straight to negative, who have no intention of resolving anything because they just want to rip you off, that is a behavior that is uniquely enabled by the ebay platform. It was worse when they also still owned PayPal. That separation has at least made things a bit better. But it's still bad. We also used to provide free shipping (on regular stamps, our heavy items we had to charge shipping for). But then ebay instituted a "seller must pay return postage" mandatory. We had people abuse that too. So in order to remain profitable, we had to stop free shipping. That in turn made our low-cost items essentially unviable, for reasons already stated. I get the sense that most sellers here have more than 90% of their sales going to the same country. By contrast 98% of my sales are shipped internationally. The vast majority (90%) going to US, the other 8% going to other countries, and about 2% remaining in Japan. So this has a different dynamic for me than how other sellers (and buyers) experience ebay.
I have not been heavily critical of ebay driving price down, and I mentioned previously that some things have been inflated. (Others have equally be undervalued). If I list a stamp for $100 it means I'm getting a % margin out of that item that I expect to get. Sourcing items is my problem. What I pay for them is my problem. If I want to remain competitive, I have to find ways to keep the margins. (I have ways of doing that, which I'm not willing to discuss here, because they are part of what make us successful, though all are exclusively ethical).
My grips with ebay aren't about driving prices down, or customers who treat dealers like crap. Welcome to the world. My complaints with ebay are they impact my ability to sell to a broader market. I am amused that on Amzaon, the " Amazon Market Place", almost no sellers have a 100% positive feedback. And the community accepts it. Why the culture of ebay has been one that unless you have 100% positive feedback, you will lose out. We know, because we measured it when it happened to us. That's not a baseless "accusation". While we didn't take a big hit in losing money or sales for the low cost items, when we got rid of them, it was still a certain sadness that in order to maintain our reputation we had to cut this from our offering, because as a dealer that had worked hard to gain a good reputation among our ebay followers, ebay would not support us on these ridiculous issues. I can think of only 2 legitimate "complaints" we received in over 10 years, both of which were resolved without the need for "negative feedback". (One was a stamp that was sent by registered mail, that actually never arrived. We refunded the buyer, and then sent a replacement free of charge by regular mail anyway as we had more of the same item). Japan post refunded us the cost of the stamp as well, so that was good. The other was an item damaged in shipment. Letter arrived mangled, which had a booklet pain (C10a) in it that was destroyed (wadded). So we just gave them their money back. All was well. The 8 - 10 negs we've had previously (and the last 2 caused me to just shut down, I was so disgusted with the whole process, as we had JUST gotten our 100% rating back again after 12 months, and again, ebay did nothing, even when we met all the requirements of their "policies", it just deflated me to the point that we pulled out of it) were all for items under $10. In fact, only the last 2 were for $10 each. The other 8 were for items $1 - $3. More than 90% of our listings were for values of $30 or more, with top end items in the $5,000 - $7,000 range. We never had so much as a "mild disappointment" with serious material.
I've been both an ebay seller and buyer almost since the platform opened (now more than 20 years ago). I'm not a novice to ebay on either side of the fence. (I just looked, I've been an ebay member since 28 October, 1999). I have no problem that ebay make 5 bazillion dollars a year, good for them. But they need to make the practices more reasonable for sellers, particularly for international shipping (from countries OTHER THAN the US). And fix what is broken with their feedback system, so that good sellers, regardless of what their niche is (and Im not just talking about stamps), aren't punished by the ethically challenged).
[End of ebay rant]

On the point of alternatives, yes, I made this point as well... there are none. Building your own web site isn't viable. (Well, you can build one, but getting traffic there is a non-starter). We advertised, both direct and wide. We put specific material only there (and don't get me started on the nightmare of trying to sell across multiple platforms like your own site, and ebay... an administrative nightmare). After 2 years pushing it really hard, we had a grand total of $0 sales, and a hosting bill (not counting the website build) of around $1,200.
I would have no qualms about selling on ebay if they would just give a little consideration to their sellers, and not make it impractical to sell lower value items.

On the point of ebay and differences in new economies, no it is broken. When we have to charge more of an item to ship it than it's value (and we're talking about a STAMP here, nothing aside from an empty envelope is a lower shipping cost than that), because we can't get even a modicum of support without a "traceable shipping method" just means we can't offer this material, without great risk to our own reputation from someone who just wants to harm us on ebay. That's a hostile sellers environment. That's like setting up a lemonade stand in Syria: you can do it, but you're going to need a bunker, and armed guards to ensure your safety. That's what "traceable shipping" means. And we would be fine if someone just wanted to claim they never got it, and ask for a refund, but we refund it and we STILL have to choke down the negative that stays on the account for 12 months. Want to tank someone's ebay rating? Just get 3 people go buy the cheapest item they can get from them, and then have them post negative feedback. Don't care how much you're selling on ebay (we were pushing over $14,000 a month in sales through them, and we got our reputations smashed by petting $1 items. Unbelievable.
I think maybe one option should be, if someone receives 100% refund, the harshest feedback they should be able to leave is neutral. If ebay would just do THAT it would be a big boon. I'd rather they get rid of the "Negative/positive" all together, and just provide a "Feedback". Anyone could read it then if they so wanted. You could better gauge instead on how much feedback a person gets instead of a "score". But this 100% culture that has been created is as much a part of the problem as anything.

On the point of "negativity toward dealers" I'm pretty surprised by that. Though I get the point that others have experienced, and wow, that actually saddens me. I guess I have been lucky (or informed) enough to have not had such an encounter. I can't imagine how that must feel.

Lastly I'd like to say to James Drummond -- thanks for taking my sense of humor in stride. Stock value rising.