Dealers? We Don't Need No Stinkin Dealers!

After having been on this forum for a few months now, one of the things that I have noticed is just how much negative, anti-dealer sentiment there is out there. As a relatively new stamp dealer who has embraced this career, having left a much more lucrative one, I am naturally deeply concerned. I wanted to start a discussion on this topic, specifically the role that dealers play in the hobby, and present my perspective on the topic.

First off, I consider myself a philatelist first, and a dealer second. I have been collecting consistently since I was 6 years old, which as of the time I write is almost 42 years - not as long as some of you, but long enough for me to have formed some very strong opinions through years of observation. I have always wanted to be a dealer since I was 8, not because I thought it would make me rich, but because I love stamps and I love the idea of serving collectors and promoting the hobby.

As a collector though, I have had many of the same negative experiences with some dealers that many of you will have had. As a young collector, I found that with few exceptions, most of the dealers I patronized had little patience for me, because I only had my $10 allowance to spend regularly, and then $100 at Christmas and my birthday. But these same people would fawn over the collectors who spent thousands. That had a very strong impact on me. So too did listening to them denigrate the collecting of anything issued after World War II.

But through it all, the conclusion that I reached was that dealers are just people. People come in all sizes and shapes, but broadly speaking I have found that with respect to promoting the hobby and preserving philatelic material, there are three types of dealers:

1. Those that have a strong desire to serve and promote the hobby. These dealers are patient with young collectors and generous with them, offering them free stamps, or stamps at a discount. They are eminently fair when they purchase collections, though they may not pay as much as some collectors may expect (more on that in a minute), and they generally conduct themselves professionally and in a way that enhances the reputation of their profession.

2. Those dealers that would like to see the hobby thrive, but who are too busy looking out for #1 to every do anything about it. These are the dealers who will routinely break up priceless early blocks of stamps to harvest the VFNH singles out of them, rather than preserving them for collectors who can appreciate them. They tolerate kids, but are not especially friendly with them, or generous. These dealers will generally be fair in purchasing collections, though they may not take the time to explain to a seller why they are offering what they are.

3. Those who only care about the money and don't care about the future of the hobby. These are the dealers who are rude to you if you approach their table and don't buy anything, or become impatient with you after you have looked through 2 or 3 stockbooks, or boxes of 102's and not found anything you want. They regularly take advantage of widowers and other sellers who are not knowledgeable by saying things like "make me an offer", and "I don't want to insult you, but we are too far apart", as a tactic to get the seller to accept less. They are openly intolerant of children collectors and will tell them that they have nothing to show them.

There are all types, and I have experienced them all. I would say from my own experience that they follow a bell curve. Most are in the second category, while a minority are #1 and a minority of #3.

But what concerns me is that the bad ones are souring collectors perceptions of the role that dealers have to play in ensuring the continued health of the hobby.

I knew that I wanted to be in the first group. In the intervening 38 years before I left the accounting profession (where I was a partner) to become a stamp dealer, I thought a lot about how I wanted to add value to the hobby and help collectors:

1. First on my list was I wanted to share my knowledge about stamps with other collectors for free. My goal was to present my observations to those specialists already interested in the material I have studied and hopefully add to their knowledge, or otherwise encourage them to re-examine their stamps from angles they may not have considered before, I also wanted to attract new collectors and encourage existing collectors to consider specializing in issues that they may not have thought presented good opportunities for specialization. To that end I have 2 blogs that I regularly publish in depth articles to. The blog is the single most important reason why I became a dealer: so that I can make enough of a living to continuing writing.

2. To build a comprehensive, in-depth stock of stamps that are consistently graded, and described and above all, consistently priced, so that a collector can have the comfort of knowing that if he or she wants a particular stamp from my area of specialty, that I will have it in stock, and the price I charge tomorrow will be the same price I charge today.

3. To promote the growth of the hobby to young people, by putting stamp images on media that they use, and to choose images that they are more likely to identify with and appreciate.

4. To ensure the longevity and health of the hobby by recognizing that the stability of the market is important, and acting to preserve it. Charging a consistent, fair price is one way to accomplish this, because it also means that sellers are paid a consistently fair price for their stamps. Having integrity and honesty to me means that I will tell a collector when the stamp they are selling me is actually the more expensive variety, when it is clear to me that it is.

5. To open up new collecting areas by using my knowledge to identify all the varieties, both listed and unlisted and making them available for purchase on a stamps by stamps basis. Many of the issues I am selling are not stocked by other dealers and are only available in bulk, at auction. I recognize that you may not want to buy in bulk and might just want to spend $1-$10 to fill that space.

6. To provide liquidity for a collectors investment, by offering to purchase, for a fair price, their collection when they decide they wish to sell.

These are the main elements of the vision that I have worked toward for the last 4 years. Along the way, I have had many satisfied customers. Most have just given me feedback on e-bay and never engaged me by responding to my welcome e-mails or anything else, but several have written me and expressed gratitude to me for helping them enhance their collecting experience, and getting these always makes my day.

I didn't get into this profession to get rich. In fact, I knew that I would be making much less than the $150K a year I used to make as an accountant, for a very long time, and possibly forever. But I made that choice because for me, working to serve the hobby is a calling - one that gives my life a greater meaning. I don't believe that I am alone, or at very least I find the idea that I am alone in this to be very hard to accept. My attitude is that if my partner and I can keep the lights on, food on the table, heat in the house, gas in the car, the cats fed and a happy home, and the writing going, then life is good.

But the perception that most dealers are rip-off artists at worst, or just superfluous middlemen at best, I believe is based in large part on a lack of understanding of the economics of the hobby. While there are a lot of collectors in the world (over 7.1 million according to Facebook), the number, relative to the population is very low. This is important because it means that the sales volume, in terms of stamps sold by a dealer, is much less than other businesses that sell more popular, mainstream products. The largest cost that a dealer used to face, back in the days of a bricks and mortar store was rent, although E-bay now charges an amount for an anchor store that is half of a month's rent for yesterday's dealer. The second largest cost they face is themselves: there are only so many hours in a day, and a dealer has to find a way to monetize that time in order to make a living. Because the volume of sales in this business is not high, it generally means that the price charged for stamps, relative to purchase cost has to be what many collectors perceive as excessive. A 100% gross markup will, in the current climate not be enough to a typical dealer to make a living. Many believe they can make it up on volume by lowering prices, but this is not typically the case, because the volume they gain is not as much as the sales they lost by charging less. So many wind up going out of business eventually.

Then there is the time value of money: the basic rule of 70 says that if you divide 70 by the interest rate, or rate of return it tells you approximately how many years it will take for money to double. So, for example, if the prevailing interest rate is 7%, your money will double in 10 years. The corollary to this is that if you hold money for 10 years, it will only be worth half today, of what it will be worth in 10 years. Thus, as a dealer, if I buy a collection today that takes me 10 years to sell, I must sell for double what I paid, just to break even on the time it took me to sell it, to talk less about making any profit on the actual purchase. At this point, I have only covered my purchase cost and carrying cost, but have not yet covered my wages (time) or overhead. By the time I factor all that in, I may need to price material for 4 to 5 times what I paid, on average. There will of course be some items I have to sell for only 10-15% more than I paid. But by and large, I have to aim for those kinds of basic margins, in order to allow for discounts and offers, and then all my costs.

All of the sudden, what may seem to many collectors like a rip-off, is really not. It is just the economic reality of running a stamp business. Of course I fully anticipate that there are some who will flat out reject what I am saying here, or will tell me that they have a friend who charges much less and does just fine etc., or will imply through their comments that I have no right to expect to make a living through my efforts. To me that is just hogwash.

From my perspective, the two biggest ways that a good dealer enhances your experience as a collector are:

1. By helping you find an area that you like to collect, can afford, and then devoting their energy to helping you find material for your collection at a fair price. Instead of spending your limited time shopping, you are able to shop with pleasure, because everything they show you is relevant to you - because they have taken the time to get to know YOU and what makes you tick. You can spend more of your time actually enjoying your stamps.

2. By providing liquidity and standing ready to turn your stamps into cash when you lose interest, when a life event requires you to raise cash quickly or some other circumstance compels you to sell. The negotiating process is efficient and simple because in many cases the dealer knows what you have and what its worth. A high degree of trust exists between you, and because of this, the negotiations are quick and easy.

Whenever I see the large growth in trading as a preferred means of acquisition and comments by collectors that suggest that the hobby will be better off without dealers, I shudder. I shudder, because I don't believe that many collectors understand what the dealer's role really is in ensuring the health of the hobby. Because we aren't all gone yet, the implications of our demise on the hobby are not well known and understood. But allow me to offer you my perspective on how the philatelic world will look without dealers:

1. There will be no short-term liquidity for stamps at all, beyond a few isolated stamps that a few collector you happen to know actually want. Values will sink to very low levels, with the hobby becoming a lot like matchbook collecting or bottle cap collecting. Who is really going to buy your lifetime collection of scarce WWII postal history from occupied Poland? Sure, you can go to an auction, that will pluck out the over $500 items and bulk lot the rest, blowing it out with a 1 paragraph description in their catalogue for 25-30% of catalogue. But there won't be very many people with the confidence and the will to buy it all, lock, stock and barrel. Or how about your collection of BC cancels on Canadian stamps?

2. Because of this, people who inherit stamps will be less inclined to take the care to preserve the collections they inherit. We will begin hearing about collections that get thrown out. That doesn't happen now generally because there is a general perception among laypeople that stamps have, or can have value. But once that perception is gone, we will see many items disposed of because the heirs are simply too overwhelmed to go through it and do what it takes to preserve it. Economic value is often a prerequisite to preservation. So, as annoying as the people writing in thinking they have a US #596 can be, one way to look at it is as a barometer of the public's perception of the value that stamps in general have. The fact that many believe they have a treasure, means that the average person thinks of stamps as something that has value and should be handled with care or otherwise preserved.

3. Because of this, the availability of stamps will be subject to the individual whims of collectors. It will take much, much longer to assemble and build collections than it does now. Back in the 1980s when long distance was expensive, the only way to build a collection was to send want lists to far away dealers, after exhausting local supplies. The internet has allowed us to build expensive collections of obscure areas with much greater speed than ever before. But I do not attribute this solely to the casual sellers. I believe most of the credit goes to dealers who devote themselves to a specialty and build a large stock of a specialized area, though other collectors are one source. Availability will be based on when collectors want to sell, which won't matter so much for common material, but for anything scarce it will become much less available than it was before. It may take even less time to form in-depth collections than it did before the 1980's. If you are a general world collector this won't matter much to you, but if you enjoy specializing in a particular issue or stamp, it will become much more challenging to find material.

4. The service element of the hobby will diminish to a very great extent. Sure, there will be some collectors that you will form relationships with who will bend over backwards to help you find stamps for your collection, but they will be vastly outnumbered by casual collector E-bay sellers who just want to sell their duplicates and have no interest or investment in you as a customer. There may be more promotion of the hobby, within the hobby, like on this board. But I very highly doubt that there will be much promotion of the hobby outside the hobby.

5. I am fairly certain that the publishing if philatelic knowledge online for free will be significantly curtailed for all but the most devoted collectors that are like minded. This, I base on my observation of the current dearth of organized and documented philatelic knowledge available online today, after almost 30 years of the internet.

It is often said that we do not appreciate what we have until it is gone. I believe that is more true now, as it pertains to dealers than ever before. The philatelic world has become so reliant on managed marketplaces like E-bay that all it would take to throw the hobby into disarray would be for E-bay to shut down or decide that they didn't want to have a stamp category anymore. You can scoff at the prospect of that happening. But when you understand that E-bay is inherently greedy when it comes to profit and loyal only to what maximizes their profit, you can see that they will drop the stamp category in a second if it gets in the way of them doing something else that makes them even more money. Of course there are alternatives like Delcampe and Hipstamp. But, it will take time for sellers to re-establish themselves, on a new platform, and there are many that will say "to hell with it" after having their businesses upended like that.

So, this is my perspective, as just one, relatively new dealer on this large philatelic landscape. I welcome all comments. But please, if you are going to disagree with me, please be polite and respectful. Please don't quote one phrase from the middle of a sentence, in the middle of a paragraph, take it out of context and then attack it like you are talking to a 5 year old. That's just disrespectful, not to mention intellectually dishonest.

Very well stated Brixtonchrome

I'm only a couple of years older than you. My experience of visiting stamp dealers when I was a child was always positive and thank goodness for that, otherwise I might not be involved in the hobby at all.

As I grew into adulthood I started to notice some of the trends you've identified. Most dealers I've encountered have been friendly, helpful and knowledgeable. There have been a few that are not but as you said, that's what people are like across the spectrum.

I don't know if I'm in the majority but I'm quite a solitary collector. I also live far away from any big cities. The internet has enabled me to obtain material I'd never have been able to through traditional bricks & mortar dealers and bourses.

I have to agree that there is infinite scope to provide quality information about our hobby for free on the internet. That said, when it comes to specialisation, there may only be a few hundred people (if that!!) collecting in a certain field, hence the low production numbers of publications, hence their higher prices, hence the lack of this information in the public sphere.

As long as stamp collecting is around, there will always be a need for dealers. As is evidenced on the internet, some people seem to thrive on negativity. I think we live in an age where if you can't find anything bad written about a given dealer, you're well on your way to enjoying a positive relationship with them.

Very well said!

In my case I'm in my 30's and missed a good chunk of the dealer proliferation era, for lack of a better way to put it. The only dealers I've had were two who both were ethically questionable and turned me off of collecting when I was in my teens and the bigger companies like Kenmore. So it's rare that I find a dealer outside of ebay that seems reputable and we all know the pitfalls that still exist on ebay.

I wonder if we tend to see the negative dealers as such a big problem simply because the numbers of dealers themselves seem to be shrinking in numbers, or at least seem to?

*I meant to say the only two dealers I knew in person first hand, that is.

I'm 42, a collector and I work at an auction house so sort of the same as you Brixton.

it's really quite simple, a dealer will only buy a lot on auction if he can make money on it, he has to pay commission, VAT (not sure if this is true in USA?). A collector doesn't need to pay vat, rent, wages meaning they can outbid a dealer EVERY TIME!!

when a dealer gets a lot over a collector, it's because collectors as a whole are cheap and doesn't know what things are worth.

i'm my mind the negativity should be pointed towards the horde of collectors that buy from auction houses?

the reason a dealer buys X is because there are customers for X, and he will continue to do so for as long as it's fun and profitable.
So basicly it's the buyers that causes dealers to buy, and the buyers will always set the marketprice.

so collectors - dust off that wallet and get busy.

of course there are bad seeds out there as there are in all trades or corners of the world, and there's really not much to do about it, besides not dealing them, eventually they will be their own demise.

I think the majority of dealers mean well and want to see both collectors and hobbyists succeed.

I think the reason we may tend to remember the "bad" dealer(s) is because it sours our enjoyment of the hobby, and since this is almost always a solitary pursuit, these negative dealers also make us question what we are doing.

a dealer is a person, and not all people are compatible, you won't find a dealer that hasn't had a run in with some people, and the love of others.

and some people are just a plain pain in the a$$, no matter what and impossible to work with.

First of all, thank Brixtonchrome for your extensive post with a good and clear text

Second a thought about a reply on your post.

I am sorry Sorsh, But I completely disagree with you.

A dealer has to pay vat rent wages and commision. That is true.

He or she also knew this before they started there business. It is a part of a business plan to know about your costs and profits before you start.

Blaming a collector or privat buyer for buying something and asume that he or she has no idea about the material they bought is not the correct way to think.

Having a busines is the dealers choice, buying you material where ever you want is the collectors choice, It is that simple.

Comparing them and put the blame on one of them is not correct.

kind regards,

Johan.

I assume I've outbid dealers in auctions from around the world for all sorts of material over the years, from broad collections to individual covers.

Knowing the material always helps. Several years ago I passed on a cover in an Australian auction as I thought the reserve was too high. Sure enough, two or three years ago the cover turned up in a mixed lot in the UK. I won the lot and despite being on the wrong side of a horrendous exchange rate, it was still cheaper than the single cover in the Australian auction!!

Brixtonchrome,
Well articulated, and you've provided a good bit of detail, history, wisdom and experience into this well thought out position.
Most of what you are saying is sensible. It's a good introduction to this discussion regarding dealers.
I've been a collector for 42 years, a dealer for near 10 years, an expertizer for 5 years. I'm "unusual" in that I'm a primarily US dealer based in Asia (originally we were in Singapore, now selling out of Tokyo), where there is almost 0 market for US stamps (save for a few expats, or the odd "world" collector here and there. In Japan I have a few customers who are "Hawaii" specialists, and that's as close to US as we get).
There are a lot of issues with why CV is misunderstood particularly by collectors. You did a nice job of segregating the difference between "Investor grade" stamps and "Hobby grade" stamps. This to me seems to be where the biggest disconnect in the debate of "collectors" who are screaming about the value of stamps. This cuts both ways. I would put collectors in the following groups (in no particular order, this isn't meant to be a "one is better than another", just a series of groups):

1. Serious collectors who embrace the true meaning if "Timbromania" which is what "philately" was called before it was philately. The term literally translates to "Stamp Mania". (Side note here, years ago, when I was on ebay before becoming a dealer, I used the screenname "StampManiac", not actually knowing that that was the original term translated from timbromania... so, this is a hint to which group I belong to). Timbromaniacs could alternatively be described as "philatelic hoarders". They will have single stamps valued in the thousands, will care about certs and are condition hounds. They are the both "investment grade" and "extremist interest" in something that may be all but valueless. They may also obsess about one to ten particular issues.

2. Historian collectors - they collect for history, and value may or may not play a role. This group is interesting because you can either invest heavily, or you can invest modestly (meagerly). The beauty of this group is, philatelic history abounds. It can be had many times for free (and that's not taking advantage... some stuff is just free). The historians marvel over cancellations, years of operation of particular post offices, machine cancels, fancy cancels, to these collectors the stamp is secondary, everything ABOUT the history of that stamp or item its attached to is the "gold". I get this group too. I'm a little less in it, but I have some obscure stuff (like a cover from an underwater post office in Hawaii that was only open for 2 years). Why, 'cause that's just COOL.

3. Pretty Collectors - Some people (like my brother in law) just collect things that he considers "pretty". This can range from singles to sheets, but mostly consists of unused material. Typically pretty collectors aren't big money spenders, but they still want good quality for the things in their collection. Again, I also understand this group, because I would describe most of my "modern collection" as "pretty". Souvenir sheets, I'm a total sucker for. Love them. And even the sheets from the 1940's (talking US now), are really reasonable and in the grasp of most collectors. This was the main focus of my collection in 1980. (When I was still a broke kid... your $10 a week, and $100 a birthday deal, I would have KILLED for). I think some people do get caught in the mindset that they hope these will be "valuable" one day, but we know that's unlikely. Doesn't mean that these aren't spectacular collections to marvel at though.

4. Degenerate Collections - Maybe I need a better term for this, because what sounds derogatory is far from it. These collectors seek out the obscure. Not just back of book, but out of book. James Drummond comes to mind in this space, as the KING EMPEROR of what I call "Out of Book" collecting. This is no longer about postage stamps, BoB or even cinderella's... this is about WEIRD. And recently with the publications he has produced he's making this obscurity more visible to collecting public. I have to admit, to a degree, I've become bored with FoB collecting, and FoB dealing as well. Foreign material just doesn't grip me for some reason (still trying to figure out why, particularly since I've lived in 10 countries, and don't live in the US, but that area remains a stronghold on me). This odd material is interesting, and found in surprising places (like on mattress tags and coffee cans). I'm now getting sucked into this world. One I call "The Dark Side".

5. Treasure Hunters - Slightly different to "investment collectors", but with a similar mindset. The true "treasure hunter" isn't really a collector, and after a few months of trying to treasure hunt and come up short, they quit "collecting". The other treasure hunters are those who go to shows and look for the misidentified (or under identified) items to get a "good deal", and turn their $50 purchase into a $1,000 score. I have no objection to these collectors. If you find something in my stock that I've misidentified in your favor, it's yours at the price I have on it, whether you tell me about it or not. That is a lesson in "education". Because the other side of that is, I'm not actually LOSING money in that case either. I wouldn't have paid thousands for a stamp that I then turn around and inadvertently slip a 164 into a pile of 153's and then realize "Oh, where did that go"? No... if I have a 164 misidentified as a 153 I would have bought it in some other lot, and valued it as a 153, and sold it as that. (BTW if you do find a 164 in my 153's, I would appreciate if you let me know, so I can at least photograph it, but it's still yours for $230). As dealers, this happens all the time. Have I bought things from dealers that had them misidentified? You bet I did... I'd happily do it again. It's the dealers responsibility to properly ID their material, not the buyers responsibility to tell them when they have it wrong. Sorry, that's what being a professional dealer IS. If a dealer can't be bothered to ID it right, then that's their issue. And I say this from the point again, they haven't accidentally slipped their #5A into the lost of #7s, and then though "Where did my $15,000 stamp go?". They bought it as a 7 for 25% of the CV and selling it as a 7 at CV, they made their money on it.

6. Topical Collectors - These are sometimes rational and understandable, and sometimes just plain crazy collectors. I had one customer a few years ago that was only interested in stamps or covers that had tomatoes on them. I had another guy who only collected "used multiples with maps" on them. Why, I have no idea. But this can range from any number of things. They also tend to be more "globally" oriented, as it opens wider variety. Fish, birds, trees, flowers, presidents, dead people, entertainers... the list is really endless. I understand this area as well, my only topical collection is Rocket and Missile mail. Working on an exhibit for this, almost ready to start to show it.

7. Exhibitors - This is a special breed. These people are almost always "expert collectors". They take great care and pride in their exhibits which, like topical collectors, can have extreme wide range of categories. However their main purpose is for material that will go into their exhibit. They are usually extremely picky regarding what they will accept, as the quality is a crucial point of the exhibit scoring. These exhibits are often sold as a collection after they have run their course.

8. Reference Collectors - For those wishing to become experts in their field or area, reference collections are crucial, particularly where highly subtle variations of color, dots, paper types exist. Some timbromanics will have this as well, without the interest in driving deeper to the "expertizing" level, but it won't be their "masterpiece" collection. I have one of these, but that's largely due to the expertizing work that I do. As a dealer, I've recently been contemplating putting together "reference collections" to sell to those in need of a reference collection. I haven't tested the "sales" waters with this idea yet, but working on it. One of the cool things about reference collections is how obscure you can get, and still be very value conscious. For example, the "bluish paper" 1909 issues are pricey. BUT, I have a large selvage piece from a 366 with part imprint on it (so I can see the right color for the issue as well). This selvage piece which I can use to compare other bluish paper issues with cost me $0. A dealer gave this to me years ago without so much as a care...

Know thy customer... know thy enemy. As a dealer, you need to do both of those.

Now that said, ebay in my view, has done more damage to stamp collectors AND dealers than it has done good. Bill Weiss and I spent years getting fraud off of ebay, only to have ebay eventually do away with the "fraud prevention program". They provide only lip service now to "prevention and protection". Fortunately one of the worst culprits, who many will know here (Ryle) is now behind bars. But as sellers, we were attacked by them (Ryle) because of our work to get them removed from ebay. Like you, we aspire to be a highly reputable dealer as well, and to serve as many collectors as possible. So while we've sold the $15,000 stamp on ebay, we also (used to) list the $1 stamps and lots too. (When I started collecting at 8, my family was dirt poor. My allowance was 25 cents a week in 1976. We had 0 money, if we did't kill it, catch it, or grow it, we sometimes wouldn't eat for 2 - 3 days. Stamp collecting was something to do. And my neighbors allowed me to rummage through their attics, literally, looking for old letters with stamps on them). I went to my first dealer expo in 1982 at 14, where I spent a whopping $30 at the show. (I had gotten a job at the library around that same time, so for the first time ever, I had money for stamps). Most of the dealers were good to me. One gave me a small collection of Lundy Island stamps that to this day, are my only "foreign" collection. (It had 8 or 10 stamps in it at the time, I have about 50 now).

So here's what happened with ebay. We used to have many listings for $1 stamps (singles or small groups depending on what they are). We viewed these in one of two ways: either "add on" when you buy something else, or if this is your price range, then it's something that anyone can afford. One day, I was doing my daily ebay admin, when I noticed we suddenly received 6 negative feedbacks. Now in the previous 10+ years at that point of selling on ebay (not just stamps in the past, but other stuff too, now only stamps), we had NEVER received even 1 negative feedback. To get 6 in the same day??? So I went looking into them. They were ALL for items that had cost between $1 and $3.
No communication from the buyers. I called ebay. They asked for "tracking" information. I said, we didn't have any, they were $1 items. They said, "No tracking, no assistance". (That's the short version after the 15 minutes screaming at them...)
A few days later, one of the envelopes came back "undeliverable". No such address... Now this person had left feedback saying "These stamps are damaged and junk". Guess what... how can you leave feedback on an item as being junk that you never received? I called ebay back, and said "Hey, now I have a returned item from the post office." They asked again "What's the tracking number?" DUH. It's a returned item. Still sealed. We offered to SEND IT TO THEM as-is, and still they refused to do anything about it. Two days later, 2 more returned undeliverable. We were stuck with 6 negative feedback on our account for 12 months (which affected our sales), over $1 items... We've NEVER had negative feedback for an item of any value. Only attacks on crap like this. Wasn't worth it to us to sell these anymore, because to include tracking, now we have to charge $6 for shipping, to cover the cost of the registered mail! No one will buy a $1 stamp that costs $6 to ship. (I really wish ebay would add a feature like Amazon has done where an item can only be an "add-on" once you buy at least $20 in other stuff). But they don't/won't do that. SO this heavily damages the availability of such accessable material to collectors, AND protect sellers at the same time. It's a horrible policy. We left ebay about 2 years ago now as a seller, after another issue where we got double negative feedback after COMBINING shipping for this "buyer", who then insisted they only got 1 item. (They did not...) But we got stuck with negative feedback again over a couple stamps totaling about $15 because some guy wanted to scam us out of a few bucks. ebay would not remove the negatives either. And of course, no communication from the buyer either, just post up a negative.
We are considering moving back to ebay again, but the new policy will be no items/lots under $100 value, because it's just not worth the hassle, and cost in lost time to deal with this stuff.

ebay is a bitter pill. On the one hand it's made selling items available to millions around the globe in a short period of time possible. That's great. But it has damaged the value of stamps and sales along the way. One of the WORST points about ebay is the "auction". In most cases I've gone to buy it now/best offer because the auction route is so flawed there.
The problem with ebay auction is they are FAVORING the buyer, which means value goes DOWN. Ever been to a real auction? When does the item sell? When the bidding STOPS. ebay, the items sells when the TIME RUNS OUT. That's not an auction! It's an idiotic race to be the lucky guy to get the LOWEST possible bid in at the last second! Want to know why stamp prices are plummeting? THAT's why! It's an online garage sale, not an auction house (like Seigle), not a retail platform (like Amazon). But for a US dealer outside the US, its "the best avenue". I suggested to ebay to have another type of auction (could even make it a "premium service" that they charge more for when you pick it, like their "reserve" option), that doesn't run out the time in the way their typical auctions do. Instead, so long as there is activity on an item within 5 minutes, it auto extends for another 5 minutes until bidding STOPS. Auction houses make their money on this premise! None of them say "Oh wait, times up, you 10 over there still bidding, you're out of luck".

People bidding in these auction types would KNOW they are this type of auction, and so their "snipe" bidding wouldn't work. How many of us would have been willing to spend an extra $5 to win lots that some clown bids late wins simply because they got the bid in at the right time?

This is what's wrong with the industry. This is what has put the brick-and-mortar shops under. And the ONLY people its good for are ebay.

Fantastic responses! A lot to digest and discuss. But I have an hour and a half to get today's orders out, so I will have to wait to do so. Keep them coming though.

Of course one person might be a few of those type collectors at the same time, treating different collecting interests in different ways.

ClassicPhilatelist: Delcampe has that option on their auction listings that extends the length of a listing if there are last minute bidders. On the other hand, Delcampe doesn't have as much traffic so...

As for ebay, I prefer selling on the auction format than fixed price and it's worked well for me, but then again I sell primarily covers which can be harder to pin down to a value.

Classic Philatelist,

I can affirm that James Drummond is indeed a degenerate collector.... wait, what?

Parhaps "Esoteric Collection" or "Collector of Esoterica" is a better term?

Re: "Pretty collector", I can assure you that I am in no way "pretty" by anyone's stretch of the imagination... however I do consider myself to be an "aesthetic collector", meaning that I gravitate to the visually appealing. I collect revenue stamps more in the manner of an art collector than a true philatelist. Contrast this with document/rate specialists like Mike Mahler or Tim Wait, who focus on the rate types and usages.

If you want to consider aesthetic collectors "superficial" compared to philatelists, I won't argue with you. It's a different approach.

All that said, I still consider myself to be a "serious collector". I don't think that the categorizations given are mutually exclusive. Once can be a member of multiple (or all) categories and still approach them "seriously" or not. Also what defines a serious collector... budget? Time spent?

Regarding the diatribes against ebay, I think most here know my stance. Rogdcam and I have butted heads over it multiple times. ebay, in my opinion, is the single greatest boon to collectibles (not just stamps) in the last half century. Were it not for ebay, there would be far fewer people involved today in collecting of all stripes.

Does it have its pitfalls and minefields? Absolutely! But for those with knowledge and experience, it allows the acquisition of material on an unprecedented scale and scope. It has removed geographic barriers more so than anything else in collectibles history.

The problem isn't ebay per se, but rather the mindset and approach of fledgling buyers (and sellers) diving into the deep end of the pool without learning how to swim first.

But this is nothing new... you see it at estate auctions all the time. It happens every day with brick & mortar sales and shows. The difference is that like anything else done online, it's much more visible to everyone else, thus the perception that it is a more pervasive problem than with traditional venues. Don't forget that human nature dictates that people post about negative issues and experiences far more than positive ones. People want to complain and vent; it's cathartic. So the perception is frequently skewed, in my opinion.

We can rehash the pros and cons of ebay forever, and in all candor and no offense intended, I always take dealers railing against the evils of ebay with a healthy dose of salt, e.g., a certain Australian forum owner that calls ebay buyers "bunnies", dripping with condescension and derision... well of course he does, ebay is his COMPETITION. The more people you can drive away from ebay, the greater the likelihood they will come to you.

The dealers who are most successful maintain an ebay presence IN ADDITION TO their own websites and/or show appearances. It's not an either-or proposition...

Classicphilatelist, so much of what you said has resonated with me on a deep level. I too thought that $10 a week spent on stamps was a lot of money, and I was always surprised at the dismissiveness of many dealers towards me, because I thought that it would be obvious to them that if I spent $10 every week that as I got older, I would eventually spend more. But many that I have dealt with don't think that far ahead. I am glad to see that at least one other person on here recognizes the damage that E-bay has done to the market and to good, honest professional dealers. I'm going to deal with that issue in a separate thread because it is a topic that definitely deserves a separate thread.

On that note I will address Revenuecollector. I can well understand why you think E-bay has been such a boon to the hobby. I fully, 100% agree with you that it has allowed the building and amassing of collections at a rate unprecedented in the history of the hobby. But I also recognize that you are speaking only from your own perspective as a collector, and you are entirely dismissive of the concerns expressed by dealers. Sure, the Australian dealer you refer to is condescending and I would agree that he hates E-bay because it competes with his business. But the fact of the matter is that you know nothing about the dealers who complain about E-bay. You are just making assumptions and presenting them as facts.

When I started my business 4 years ago, I decided to put all of my attention and energy into building my business on E-bay because I thought like you did. I thought that if I paid E-bay $500 a month for a store, that they would bring me traffic and allow me to grow my business. Instead they use secret algorithms to enforce secret sales quotas that I am not allowed to pass. This isn't a mere opinion: I have analyzed my statistics and can see clear and irrefutable evidence of manipulation that has had the effect of retarding the growth of my business to the point where I cannot hire staff and I cannot pay down the debts that I incurred to fund my investment in the business. No matter what I do. I will illustrate in another thread sometime how I know this to be true and how such manipulation benefits e-bay. But for now here I will merely say that I did not see E-bay as my competition. I was a willing participant and an experienced philatelist who knows the market, and my success has been limited. I recognize that there are some who do very well and I can illustrate why that does not contradict or refute my general observations about E-bay.

That being said I will very likely continue to maintain my presence there - not because I like it, but because they have such a monopoly on the online traffic there, that I now have no choice but to be there.

I am glad to see that despite the negativity expressed towards dealers by a lot of collectors there are still quite a few collectors that value what we do. It gives me hope because I am currently working a 6 week contract in my old profession to try and gather up enough money that I can successfully apply for a new bank loan that will enable me to hire and buy more stock, and maybe finally get my website off the ground. But I have days when I wonder if I am making the biggest mistake of my life - if I shouldn't just throw in the towel, become a private collector again and go back to making 6 figures. It's a little sad because I am not motivated by money. I just want to do something meaningful with my life, and stamps are in my blood. I can't think of anything better than inspiring collectors to go trudging down new paths that I have lightly beat into the terrain with my writings. But I can't do that if I can't make a living selling stamps, or at least I can't do it on the scale that I have done for the past 4 years. Admittedly, this is where my frustration with E-bay comes from. It is a one size fits all business model and it works for some material, like covers, that are truly one of a kind, and common stamps that you can stock in large quantity, put up as GTC and charge 99c a piece for. But it does not work well with stamps in the $20-$250 catalogue range at all. Again, I will explain why I think this is in another thread.

You may have noticed that I essentially painted myself as each one of the categories I listed.
I like your additional differentiation of "aesthetic" as a property (in this case of condition). And to clarify, I was not including this notion in the "pretty" bucket. You are right, I certainly am very very keen on aesthetic of a stamp. I don't mind a fault in a stamp like a thin or a hinge remnant if it doesn't impact the visual appeal of the stamp overall. (In most cases, but I'm also not going to pay full CV for such an item, and I'm fine with that).
I'm also open to additions to that list. I just wrote it off the top of my head, as a thinking based on reading Birxtonchrome. It's a topic worth discussing, and a good substantive discussion at that.

My two comments about ebay:
1) You may note that I also described ebay as both pro and con. Yes, has opened the market/world. It's also driving values down. Not just in stamps but others. Sure, call that a supply/demand issue, I'm not saying that the values weren't inflated to start with, in some cases they are. So in the supply/demand market we have to take lower margins, if we want to make the same revenue, we need to then sell more. That's where it's broken.
2) I have NO problem with people who have complaints, who feedback on bad experiences, who are "customers" (who are always right). The problem I have is with a platform that enables "buyers" to manipulate sellers on ebay to strengthen their fraud and/or rip sellers off. The only negs we've ever received are from these types of people. And when we run something less than 100% feedback (another ebay problem... remember when sellers could identify people who were crooked buyers, yeah, that's gone now too), with less than 100% positive feedback, your sales go down. We watched it three times in 10 years. And we're being the good guys! There is no protection from ebay. They are a buyer-biased.
Regarding other platforms, yes, the issue there once again is visibility and traffic. Unfortunately ebay remains the "central platform". We set up our website, emailed all our ebay buyers, 2 years later... 0 sales.
Even writing these responses on this thread has me having second thoughts about going to back to them again.

Talk about making assumptions... I've been on ebay as a buyer AND seller for over 20 years, and I frequently converse with dealers both on and off ebay, about ebay, so please spare me the condescension.

Because we may disagree and/or come from different perspectives does not make you inherently right and me inherently wrong, or vice versa.

My comment regarding dealers naysaying ebay was about inherent conflict of interest, in case you missed it. That conflict of interest exists whether you like it or not.

For someone new to both the hobby and the forum, comparatively speaking, you sure do like to lecture people a lot... for as much as you rail against negativity against dealers, physician heal thyself... if there's negativity in this thread, it is coming from you.