Trouble With The Taylor 5 Cent A55 Idenfying It It.

There is always variations on characteristics across the known stamp population of any given issue to make definite identification based on paper, color and impression just about impossible for a panel of experts to render a unanimous opinion on such a valuable stamp. For example, the paper grain of the last two #181s to come up for auction at Siegel's are different, such that one is shorter and wider than the other. One of these must be misidentified. To keep from making such errors in the future, experts rely on provenance and known expert/dealer markings on the back of items sent for expertization. Ken Lawrence once stated that he doubted any new discovery of #181 would be certified. And Scott Trepel quipped, "I know a Special Printing when I see one. It has a certificate..."

Thank You Tipzi;
I think this is a brilliant piece of information I couldn't find or would of found in Scott's catalog or other stamp books that I know of "very big".
I guess some things aren't what they seem, sometimes you have to ask questions the right questions and look a little closer and dig a little deeper in order to find out what the truth is ,and isn't it what its all about the truth?
I'm thinking there is a reason ,I'm not naming names but one stamp certify-er would not answer back to me about this stamp ,I guess he knows the truth I'm guessing the truth is they don't know or wouldn't know, seeing this past history you have just told me about.
There also must be a reason and logic to how this happened and why , for the sake of the stamp community and the business of stamps, This worried me I was afraid the certify-er would have taken my money knowing all along knowing it couldn't be certified or wouldn't be, that's if I sent it in with check.
That's one thing about this community really helped avoid.
Thanks again
Dan

I thank you all for listening but here is a little bit of more of info from a thread from a old topic about this kind of stamp.
By blazenstar https://goscf.com/t/45070
The only way is through the paper to tell if it is a Scott 179, Scott 181 or Scott 185 or Special Printing of the 1880 Issue Soft Porous Paper with out gum. There are 4 types of paper, the Yellowish Wove Paper, the Special Printing of 1875 Issue which was Hard, White Wove without gum, and the Soft Porous Paper Varying Thick to Thin, and the Special Printing of the 1879 Issue- Soft Porous Paper without Gum.
This makes me wonder if its the other soft paper he is talking about a thinner paper, is my questionable stamp?
But as I look at my stamp I did the ping test to see if it made a sound when you ping it with a finger nail .Well I did it and it makes the same sound as my other 179 hard paper while the other 185 didn't make that kind of sound or very little sound a this is very questionable way to do this testing .
I also see the "perforation tips on the stamp" they seem to have the tips chipped off,I think maybe because they are so brittle being hard paper? I don't know if you could do that with a thinner soft paper?
Anyway this is just another observation .

Dan Townsend, I understand your confusion and intellectual curiosity in attempting to ID the difference between Scott 179, 181 & 185.

I decided to have a closer look at mine (sorry for the delay). Using a light table I feel confident in separating out the 179's from the 185's. But I, like you, have one that just doesn't seem to neatly fit into either category. In the high res scan below the two one the left are 179's, the two on the right 185's and the one in the middle??

It has obviously whiter paper than all the others, 179 & 185 alike. It doesn't appear to have been 'washed'. When 'flicking' it seems to sound like harder paper but also seems to have the same opacity as the other 185's (I have several others not included here).

I just scanned them again with the V600 at 1200 dpi using the Professional Mode as a 'color film negative' with a curious result. Look at jacket of the two 185's to the right. Maybe just happened this way...?

Hello everyone;
I hope this will clear things up about soft and hard paper stamps.
I first really thought I had a 185 stamp but just seeing the big difference in the stamps
made me check out other threads.
What I found made me really change my mind.
It was done by Essay.https://goscf.com/t/38329&SearchTer...tal,american
Here is that thread.
Nonetheless, your point seems to be that both hard and soft paper appear as "woven" (wove) paper, and differ mainly in the size of their fiber structure. The large fibers of soft paper owe to wood pulp, while the hard papers are made from rag fiber, mainly cotton and/or linen. In addition to differences in the tightness of the "weave" the luminence of the paper under UV will be much affected by the sizing agent used to bind the different types of fiber into a solid mass. And when it comes to stamps there are other factors as well.
@bill Weiss
yes, the Chronicle is my preferred venue. But I'm working on two other studies ahead of this one. It does get attention from time to time.
This is my question I thought this could really be a solution?
If you wanted to make sure if it was cloth or wood maybe you could use other ways of testing or use a higher magnifications?
Another test of mine was to compare
This was troubling me so much the difference of my stamps I wanted to have another comparison so I bought this stamp that I thought might make it show that if there might be a very white paper and with a very smooth surface and then compare I don't know if it proves anything .
So here is that stamp check it out .

I don't know what happened Caper123;
I didn't see your thread until now ,but you make me feel like I'm not the only one that see's these difference's'.
Maybe not getting the right explanation for it, made me think I was going crazy and maybe I shouldn't ask. But searching for a answer in the stamp community past blogs might help.But knowing just one thing makes me think that there are people with this same stamp and want a answer
Thanks Again Dan

I have another comparisons of a 185 to the new white 185
and questionable stamp to the new white 185.
The first one is
the new 185 white


185 to the new white 185

the questionable one to the new white 185

the new white 185 to the questionable stamp

In the last photo with the back light, are you using a regular incandescent bulb? If so, try florescent or some others white light.

You right I used a incandescent bulb a candelabra bulb.
Thanks a good idea I will try a "daylight lamp" which it suppose to be more natural light florescent lamp and with the light box should be good .

Here are some pic's using the florescent as promised .
some back lighted some not.

Please keep in mind the following:

1. The transition from hard to soft paper occurred before the consolidation with the American Bank Note Company on Feb 4, 1879.
2. CNBC intermediate paper appeared in 1877.
3. CNBC soft paper appeared in August 1878 before the 1879 consolidation.
4. American Bank Note Company used a small amount of hard paper for special printings that were destroyed, and paper left over was used for regular printings.

Official stamps are commonly found on intermediate paper. It is also found on all or nearly all regular printings. Although intermediate paper is unquestionably from Continental Bank Note printings, it is commonly lumped in with the less expensive hard or soft paper variety.

American Bank Note hard paper cannot be positively identified unless the stamp has selvage or wide margin displaying the American Bank Note logo. Less than ten examples have been identified. Known denominations are 1 and 3 cent, but other denominations including the 5 cent are believed to exist. The Ron Burns article in the US Chronicle provides additional information and suggestions for how to identify the paper.

Quantities of special printing stamps sold are listed in the 2020 US Scott Specialized catalog. Low quantities sold to collectors suggest that few if any would have been used. If any were used, low denominations used for domestic mail would be much more likely to survive than higher denominations like the 5 cent more likely to be used on international mail or packages.

I thank You CFR Photo:
I really appreciate the info;
With all due respect,why not put in a catalog that you have to have a signed paper to prove it.
And if you do , shouldn't it be public knowledge how ,where and with proof and reason you think it is what it is if you have a cert.
I look at the 9 stamps that are the 181 I could not believe those stamps were the same group of special printing half are really different.
Can they prove them to be original ,with real facts not just someones words.
Wouldn't you like to know about this special hard paper how many could they have made? Wouldn't you like to know, I wonder why there isn't a special price just for this stamp ,just like ribbed paper , or silk filament paper,or any special history making oddities ,did they not know if they are going to use this to identify this stamp? Im guessing could they have a problem with people asking the same questions, would it be to confusing?But telling people this isn't a hard white wove paper is harder to explain in the long run.
I think until you can have a tool to absolutely identify a stamp you will always have a problem.
That's the way I see it,if you have any comments let me know
Thanks Dan

Hello again;
Its hard for me to follow what cfrphoto is saying but it sounds very complicated .
I did find something in Scotts catalog and here is a quote;
While use of Nos,192-204 for postage was legal,no "used" examples are recorded . Expertization by
competent authorities would be required to establish use.Now this was for the soft porous paper stamp.
They must have realized they might have hard white wove paper stamps that were also "used" the question is why not talk about the possibilities there were a around 317 sold of the 1875 and 1880 Special printing .
.
This sounds like they did know about the other stamps printed on the special paper hard white paper if cfrphoto is correct or if I understand correctly.It also sounds like it would be pretty crazy to use this white hard paper for other printing why call the 181 "special" did they screw up. The problem is what do you call them and how do you price them the questionable white hard paper wove stamps if mine is a 181?
I would send it in to get a cert but are they really going to know any more , would I be wasting this money
remember 0 amounts of this stamp being certified as a 181 .
Thanks again Dan
Also this is for caper123 I would need a better picture of your questionable middle white stamp using a shadow box or something to back light the stamps.

If any regular issue 5 cent Scott 185 exist on hard paper, an American Bank Note Company Plate would have been used. The special printing, Scott 181, was printed using a Continental Bank Note Company plate.