Help -- Not My Field Of Expertise Cat # For This W-F

The stamps are type III, probably 492, possibly 455. Watermarks on some type III coils are difficult to find. Also, what I thought I didn't see in the small images is the gap where the engraving lines meet under Washington's ear lobe. The gap is prominent on type I rotary press printings leaving a vertical white area under the ear lobe. The gap is closed up somewhat on type II stamps and is almost non-existent on type III printings.

Regarding the ink on the gum. Setoff ink would be under the gum from stacking ungummed sheets to dry. The Stickney rotary press was outfitted with a drying stage to minimize moisture in the paper before gum was applied. Anyone who had difficulty seeing the difference between this stamp and a typical flat plate printing should mount a coil and a sheet stamp like a 499 or a flat plate coil like 444 side-by-side. Look at the pair closely until differences become apparent without a magnifier. The other tell is alignment of perforations between rows. Bureau flat plate stamps seldom have aligned perforations.

cfrphoto: Once I saw the better scans, I knew the stamps were type III rotary, so I assumed the "setoff" really wasn't setoff. But your explanation clarified what, in hindsight, was obvious. Thanks!!

If these are type III, they are far and away the weakest examples I have ever seen.

Look like Type I to me.

On the larger scans, I can see a 2nd line on the right-hand ribbon on the first & third stamps. On the middle stamp, whether there is a 2nd line or not is less clear. The 2nd lines are not very heavy, but they are there. Which I would think should make these stamps type III. This would also help explain the inability to detect a watermark … the type III 492 has no watermark.

Type III should have 3 lines.

I tend to agree with you, there are 3 lines … but Scott always refers to 2 lines. So I followed their lead. I can see 3 lines on the right ribbon of two of these stamps. But I think the clincher is Clark's reference to the "vertical gap" beneath the ear lobe. I was unaware of this distinguishing mark, so I went back & looked at all of my type I, II & III. Sure enough, all type I have a vertical white area beneath the ear lobe (even the flat plate). It's still there on type II, but less distinct. On type III, it's gone. And it can't be seen on the large scans of these stamps.
Thank you again to cfrphoto!

As I said, I have never seen a type III with such a weak top toga line, or without the curved line in the hair in front of the ear. Pity we only have scans, these are interesting examples.

Agreed. If I had run across these on my own, I would have quickly scoped them out as type I. And never have known how interesting they were.

I have many examples, perhaps hundreds. The most confounding one I recall was a type III 450 with poor plate wiping that scooped ink out of some of the fine lines. Everyone wants the stamp to be a type I 449, but it is not. In my experience poorly printed examples that resemble type I are type III. Type I coils seem crisper and colors seem brighter.

OK. This seems to be the puzzle of the year. Sorry to have taxed your brains.

Next question. Would it be worth it to send to the PF for a certificate? I would assume they would come to a definitive conclusion.

What will a cert tell you beyond this discussion?
Cost vs the item's value does not justify.

All I'm trying to do is find out what the Cat # is. I don't think this discussion has come to a definitive conclusion.
Cat values span both ends of the spectrum. Just trying to determine a value so I can list it correctly when I sell it.

The primary conclusion is that your stamps are rotary press type III. Two choices here … 455 (single line watermark) or 492 (no watermark). Since you can't see a watermark, 492 is the probable id. Neither stamp is worth certifying.

Thank you all.

Whew!