Experimental Silk, How Many Is Too Many?

Threads that is...

I have a "normal" sized private die stamp (Merchant's Gargling Oil, RS178) that I assume is on silk paper. But there are only six identifiable (short) blue threads. This seems a little light for silk, but on the high side for experimental silk for a stamp that size. None of the threads are very long where I would have expected a few long threads if it was silk.

Too close to call?

I believe the New York Match private die stamp (RO173) on experimental silk has a lot of threads. So there does seem to be a precedent for a high thread count experimental silk.

?

a photo or scan of the back would go a long way to help in forming an opinion.

I was really wondering if there was a general rule of thumb. But it was prompted by my stamp, so here it is. I didn't think the threads would show up but it came out OK. I number them, and there are eight, not six. I missed #4 earlier and plain miscounted. Everything else visible is dirt etc...

imo this is a silk paper copy. the threads for experimental silk examples are usually 1/8" or shorter and have more of a chopped end appearance.

both the silk and the experimental silk was added to the "stuff" (paper mix) by hand and was not always well mixed in. I have seen a large imperf m and m multiple on silk paper where the distribution pattern of the fibers was such that some copies were strewn with them, some had a few and some had none. the size and shape of the fibers was varied, and one or two were short enough that they could have been passed as experimental had other fibers not been present. some could even have almost passed for old paper. the experimental silk was introduced in a much smaller quantity and most examples I have seen contain but 1-3 fibers even on large size stamps.

It appears to be a silk paper to me, albeit one with a small number of fibers. Another test you can do when presented with this situation is to compare the stamp to other silk papers and other experimental silk papers, because the papers themselves, forgetting the silk fibers, are very different. If you have any doubts, this test will usually settle them.

You mention the New York Match, RO137e. It is true that the experimental silk paper on this stamp has an abundance of silk fibers. Interestingly, RO137b, the silk paper variety, although a major rarity and seldom seen, also has an abundance of silk fibers, probably more per stamp of that size than any other private die stamp. The thing to be careful of with RO137e is that it is sometimes offered as RO137b because people are not familiar with characteristics of these two stamps.

Dumb question: Is the "experimental silk paper" referred to regarding the m&m stamps the same as the 1st issue "silk paper", and then "silk paper" in m&m parlance the same as 2nd and 3rd issue documentary papers, or are we talking completely different sets of papers and terminology for the two areas?

One doesn't typically encounter the term "experimental" with respect to 1st issue documentary silk paper; it's just referred to as "silk paper" and then 2nd and 3rd issue documentaries don't make any reference to silk at all, since the stamps are only found on silk paper.

If my understanding is accurate, as m&m mentions above, there was incredible inconsistency and variation as far as the density of blue silk threads due to the manual production process. I've seen 1st issue silks where there's a single thread in a stamp, or a block where several stamps do not exhibit any silk threads but other stamps have several, and then other 1st issue silk papers where the stamp was rife with threads, even "clumps" (for lack of a better word).

Is the "experimental silk paper" referred to regarding the m&m stamps the same as the 1st issue "silk paper", and then "silk paper" in m&m parlance the same as 2nd and 3rd issue documentary papers, or are we talking completely different sets of papers and terminology for the two areas?

No, they are not the same paper. The first issue and M&M experimental papers are the same, but the Second and Third issue are Willcox Chameleon Paper, which truth be told is actually pretty bad paper. It is a very soft, very unevenly distributed paper with a lot of fibers. I don't believe that the M&M silk paper was Willcox; at least it is not the grayish, violet or green of their papers.

The first Proprietaries were also on Willcox paper.

i have seen clumping on the 2nd and 3rd issues but not on the m and m's. Wilcox paper was not used for the m and m's that I am aware of. the order of use that is generally accepted is old, experimental silk, full silk, pink and watermarked. the Wilcox paper was part of the early reuse prevention experiment along with the fugitive inks
and later used for the 2nd and 3rd issues. the Boston book touches on this.

Thanks for the silk paper clarifications.

If you want an eye full of silk threads, let me offer this. Willcox paper was used for this 1872 taxpaid tobacco revenue





For your edification, I have scanned both sides of the back at high resolution, showing plenty of threads to assess and consider.