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German Cancel From 1890 That I Can't Understand

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Valued Member
New Zealand
62 Posts
Posted 02/02/2021   12:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add indigo to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have a very fragment of a cover that was posted from Melbourne, Australia on 6 December 1890 to Germany. It is registered and bears the correct rate of one shilling. The only fragment of the address that remains is "Frau Wally S" and the rest of the surname is missing.
On the back is a Melbourne Registered datestamp and a slightly larger CDS which to me looks like it reads:
"K.B. Gah..." 11 Jan

I don't know any German so I can't guess at the words under the date.

Can anyone help me with even the slightest bit of additional information please? I would of course like to know town name on the datestamp, but also what it says under the date, or even to whom it is addressed. A small "6" in a circle is also on teh back of the fragment.

Thank you for any help you can provide.



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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 02/02/2021   01:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
indigo,
I think the postal history specialists, like to also see scan of the full cover, front and back, to read the history, and help decipher auxilliary markings, if you can.
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Pillar Of The Community
France
2925 Posts
Posted 02/02/2021   01:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add vayolene to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe a bavarian postmark : "K.B.Bahnpost"
Königlich Bäyerische Bahnpost = Royal Bavarian Railway Post
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Edited by vayolene - 02/02/2021 01:20 am
Valued Member
New Zealand
62 Posts
Posted 02/02/2021   01:13 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add indigo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rod222,
If only I could! All I have is a fragment, not the whole cover.

Were I to guess I would say the writing under the Date is "Kufst - something" but that's as far as I get. I know there is a famous street in Berlin called Kurfürstendamm but that's about as far as I can get.

The actual address is completely torn off. Only the pre-printed name remains.
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Pillar Of The Community
6326 Posts
Posted 02/02/2021   01:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
indigo,
I agree fully with rod222, interpreting postal history involves seeing everything in context. We need to see a scan of the entire front and back of whatever piece you have - showing just beyond the edges without cropping, etc. Otherwise you are asking us to provide the full story from partial data - from fragments of a fragment. Humor us.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2941 Posts
Posted 02/02/2021   01:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PostmasterGS to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As vayolene stated above, the cancel is from the K.B. Bahnpost (Königlich Bäyerische Bahnpost or Royal Bavarian Railway Post).

This cancel is number K1901 of type 5.5.1.0. in the BArGe-Bahnpost catalog.

The text at the bottom is the route, Kufstein-München, which on this cancel was abbreviated as Kufst-Mchen. This cancel was in use from 1882-1899.
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Presenting the GermanStamps.net Collection - Germany, Colonies, & Occupied Territories, 1872-1945
Valued Member
New Zealand
62 Posts
Posted 02/02/2021   01:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add indigo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you to everyone for your replies. PostmasterGS has shown me up for not even knowing such a catalogue (I should say Katalog) existed. I see on the internet that copies are readily available so I shall get one. I find it so interesting to see so much from just a tiny postmark.

I do agree with my other respondents about the utility of the whole cover, but in this case I simply don't have it. Poor Frau S is destined to remain anonymous and without an address I am afraid. Although she may well have lived along that rail route!
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Pillar Of The Community
6326 Posts
Posted 02/02/2021   05:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have a very fragment of a cover



Quote:
but in this case I simply don't have it.


Speaks a lot to me. Wasted my time. I won't do it again.
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Valued Member
Austria
283 Posts
Posted 02/02/2021   06:16 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tommtomm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Speaks a lot to me. Wasted my time. I won't do it again.

He asked for help with the cancel, nothing more. And other users could help him, so what's the problem?
There always will be questions about unknown cancels without the whole cover, should that be forbidden from now on?

I really like those riddles, and I learned something new - so for me no wasted time at all. Thanks!
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Valued Member
New Zealand
62 Posts
Posted 02/02/2021   3:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add indigo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am grateful for all your replies, and as a result of the information supplied I could look up something more about where the mysterious Frau Wally S would have lived.
The section of railway runs around fifty miles (80km) southeast from Munich. Munich is in the state of Bavaria (the "B" in the cancel) in the very south of Germany, and the town of Kufstein lies just a minute or two over the Austrian border, in a valley between mountains of the Tyrol region. Much of the journey, from Munich to Rosenheim, is the same as the famous Orient Express which started running about seven years before the postmark was struck.
There are many covers illustrated on the internet with similar railway postmarks and many of them also have a number in a circle, like the "6" I scanned, and so I would guess that it too was applied on the train. Sorting the mail on board the train meant it got there faster than if it was sorted at Munich beforehand.


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Valued Member
Austria
283 Posts
Posted 02/03/2021   03:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tommtomm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Due to a German cancel database, the "6" could be a postman's cancel from Ansbach/Bavaria.
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
6526 Posts
Posted 02/03/2021   04:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It would be interesting to know why a letter from Melbourne to Germany would be transported between Muenchen and the border with Austria to the south of Muenchen (which direction?), but carry a postman's cancel from a town quite some way north of Muenchen (near Nuernberg).
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
797 Posts
Posted 02/03/2021   06:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Johan Buvelot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The postmark is Kuffstein-Munchen.

So the direction is north from Kuffstein to Munchen and then further to Ansbach(assuming this is correct).

The other way around would be a Munchen-Kuffstein postmark.
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
6526 Posts
Posted 02/03/2021   06:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I also considered that the line would show the direction in which the mail was carried.

Melbourne - Austria (Kufstein) - Bavaria: did it travel by ship via the Suez Canal to Italy, Brindisi perhaps then Austria?
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2941 Posts
Posted 02/03/2021   07:06 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PostmasterGS to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Based on the dates, it may have been carried on board the steamer Kaiser Wilhelm II traveling the Australische Hauptlinie (Australian Main Line). In 1890, the line ran from Sydney to Bremerhaven, with stops in Melbourne, Adelaide, Columbo, Aden, Suez, Port Said, Genoa, Southampton, and Antwerp.

The two dates we know are Melbourne on 6 December 1890 and the Bahnpost on 11 January 1891.

The Kaiser Wilhelm II was in Melbourne on 5 December 1890. I'm not sure if that was an arrival date, departure date, or both. If it didn't depart until the following day, the letter could have traveled on board.

The Kaiser Wilhelm II then made port in Genoa, Italy, on 8 January 1891, which would have been a likely place to offload the letter for transport to Austria, where it received the Bahnpost transit cancel 3 days later.
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Presenting the GermanStamps.net Collection - Germany, Colonies, & Occupied Territories, 1872-1945
Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 02/03/2021   07:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Fabulous treatment there Postmaster !

Having trouble locating that Kaiser Wilhem ll

All I can see is the ship launched 1902 (USS Agamemnon)
Any idea where the earlier Kaiser vessel is shown?

Oops Found it in wiki
Belay that request.
(No info or images available)


https://www.maritimequest.com/liner..._profile.htm
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Edited by rod222 - 02/03/2021 08:06 am
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