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Scott 34 - Question On Meaning Of "Recut" On Cert

 
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Posted 06/05/2021   12:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Redtail to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I received an expert opinion that I don't fully understand and I was hoping to get some insight if possible from this group.

The Scott #34 Opinion reads "it is genuine used, Pos. 76L1 with guide dot at upper left and Recut at bottom"

I believe the "guide dot" is part of the production process. Is that correct?

I don't know what "Recut at bottom" means? Is that also a production matter or is this some kind of modification by a deal or collector post production?

Thank you
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Posted 06/05/2021   1:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Recut at bottom is a production matter - it is what makes your stamp a Type IV, Scott #34, rather than one of the other varieties of the 10 cent 1857. Basically, the engravers strengthened, or "recut", the top or bottom outer lines on the printing plate. The Scott catalogue defines the Type IV stamps as "recut at top or bottom or both" and the cert is just explaining that your stamp is a Type IV because it is recut at bottom
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Posted 06/05/2021   2:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stephen J Bukowy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Many of the early stamps were basically the same design. About a dozen stamps have the same design as yours. What makes them different are the perforations, and the various modifications to the original design. Engravers modified the basic design by adding or removing parts of scrolls, balls, lines, etc. in the original. In your case as SPQR said your design was recut (deepened) which made it a Type IV.
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Posted 06/05/2021   2:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Redtail to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you both for this input! I understand the opinion now! These early classic stamps are a good example of "flyspeck" philately. Cert are required for the non-expert!
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Posted 06/05/2021   2:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
When the printing plate is made the guy making it (he is called a sideographer), he may make little dots on the steel plate to allow him to better position the stamp image he is applying to the printing plate. These dots are layout or guide dots. He may also add layout lines. In theory, these layout lines and dots are removed when the printing plate is polished and they are except when they aren't.

When impressing the design from the transfer roll on to the plate, the sideographer may have done a below standard job and to fix it, he uses a sharp tool to make the dents into the printing plate deeper or wider by "recutting" that portion of the design he is trying to fix. Plates also wear from use due to the friction of the ink, paper and related wiping. That wear makes some lines look faint and then to extend the life of the printing plate, the now worn lines are "recut" into the printing plate.

Remember, the printing plate has valleys and depression (the stamp design) which hold the ink being transfer to the stamp paper during printing.

Plate position names the "pane" cut from the printed stamp sheet, such as Left and Right when two are cut or Upper Left, Upper right, Lower Left and Lower Right when four panes are cut. Then starting at the upper left most stamp each image position is number, 1, 2, 3, until the last image on the row, then the count continues on the left most stamp on the next row down, 6,7 (panes five images across) or 11, 12 (panes ten images across).


From here: https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8b14749/ is the image below. The image in the link can be greatly blown up for detail:





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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 06/05/2021 3:05 pm
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Posted 06/06/2021   7:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DrewM to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Very good explanations. As is so often the case, the certificate writers sought to communicate by using abbreviated language instead of clear statements -- and failed to communicate very well in the process. Some might think the word "recut" had something to do with the way the stamp got trimmed after it was removed from the printed sheet of stamps -- by a postal clerk or a collector -- when it actually means the engraving was recut, as described so well here. All these stamp experts had to do was write "engraving recut at bottom." But they didn't. I'm never sure why people intentionally write this way. Are they in a big hurry? Is there not enough space for a couple of extra words on the certificate? My own guess is that it's part of the "I'm a professional and this is just the way we talk syndrome". It's popular with doctors, engineers, auto mechanics, computer folks, and many others. Once you learn to speak and write that way, whether or not it actually communicates well is not a concern of yours.
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Posted 06/06/2021   8:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
No one ever says "engraving recut". Not in the catalog, not in auction descriptions, not anywhere. Stamps such as #9, #16, #23, and #34 are always described as "recut at top", or "recut at bottom", or "recut at top and bottom". They have been described this way for well over 100 years.
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Posted 06/06/2021   10:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
this is just the way we talk syndrome". It's popular with doctors, engineers, auto mechanics, computer folks, and many others. Once you learn to speak and write that way, whether or not it actually communicates well is not a concern of yours.


What you are discussing is "nomenclature" and "term of art" which is commonly used in many, many areas to allow communication of specific details in specific circumstances in specific arenas.

How many total words are in the English language? If we want to talk about how many words there are in English, there are three key numbers to remember: more than a million total words, about 170,000 words in current use, and 20,000-30,000 words used by each individual person.

Many words NOT used by most folks are often nomenclature and terms of art in areas in which they have no need to communicate. When we choose to enter into one of those areas, we should expect to learn some of the new nomenclature or terms of art. Heck there is even a phrase for that, the learning curve.

Recut on the certificate is a term of art as is the coded position of the image on the steel printing plate. The act of deepening, widening or lengthening a groove on a metal printing plate by hand with a hand tool is called recutting, which is the name for the action or nomenclature.

Now if you let me tell a story, it may help understand when knowledge of nomenclature and terms of art do and don't matter. I will use me as the example as I have no issue putting me in harm's or stupidity's way in my own stories:

I am being shot at. I don't need to know the name and type of gun being used sending what type of bullets toward me. What I really need to know are the differences between "cover" and "concealment." Once my buddies and I get into cover we may consider fighting back. Now it matters to me what kind of gun I have and what kind of bullets I need for it. See, one buddy, Mary, was carrying all of the ammo. I need to tell her I want .22 long but Bob needs 9mm and John needs the mortar shells because he is carrying the mortar. Now Mary, bless her, is new at this so does not yet understand bullet size nomenclature, so I revert back to something quite general as tell her to toss me the small bullets, Bob the medium bullets and John the real big things. Mary did not have a gun only her transdimensional level two summoner. However, before Mary got us the ammo, the folks shooting at us were taken out by a level 4 wizard who responded and the game was over. So even in make believe computer gaming, nomenclature and terms of art are created and used.

Lastly I wish to point out that you did not have a problem, or at least did not mention a problem with the Scott Number used in the OP, #34, yet that too is a term of art, but one understood by the OP, the PF, you and I. Of course the certificate could have read, "More than 100 years ago, Mr Scott, liked stamps and wanted to keep track of them so ...."


I now will leave with good wishes to you, but as I don't know which nomenclature you follow, I leave you two versions:

1. Live long and prosper.
2. May the force be with you.

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Posted 06/06/2021   10:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

What has been a curiosity, for me, for years,
are authors whom produce *.pdf's of Philatelic interest,
and name them the most obscure, and penurious titles.

"Postmarks of the the early Karushostan" may be offered as
"7dgr.pdf"

Why the miserly titles?

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Posted 06/06/2021   11:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
7dgr.pdf


7(th)d(raft)g(ot)r(ight)

p(hilatelic)d(eath)f(ile)


[You need to know the key to abbreviation. ]


For nomenclature guy, I ask, is this, "." a period, one third of an ellipsis or a dot in 7dgr.pdf?

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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 06/07/2021 11:58 am
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Posted 06/06/2021   11:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You're in a jolly mood lately PPG.

Challenge.
wait for your next auction catalogue pdf.
without renaming, you'll never find it again, I'll warrant.
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Posted 06/07/2021   11:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
"Postmarks of the the early Karushostan" may be offered as
"7dgr.pdf"

Why the miserly titles?


At one time, in the not to distant past, filenames were limited to 8 characters (plus a 3 character suffix). Just a bit of computer trivia.
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Posted 06/07/2021   11:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
At one time, in the not to distant past


I programmed with punch cards and then up graded to paper tape. The move from a PDP4 to PDP8 was fun too. Now I have all USPOD Postal Guides hiding in my computer with names making it easy to find the September 1913 monthly.

Renaming files is not really a chore everything considered.
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Posted 07/03/2021   3:29 pm  Show Profile Check ray.mac's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ray.mac to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I was thinking about this stamp and this entire thread, and the fact that the OP didn't know what the word "recut" was referring to. IMO, it may be as simple as many or even most U.S. stamp collections probably don't have a #34, just like they may not have a #16, 19, 19b, 1c 1857 Type Va, or many of the other specialist stamps-- and the space in their album for #10 or #10A, #64 or 64b may have a misidentified stamp.

And by the time that many collectors would spend the money to either purchase one of these, or try to find one on their own that's been misidentified by someone else (I'm winking here), it's because they've probably studied and learned something about these varieties and have made the shift from being a collector to a philatelist.

Either way to the O.P, congratulations on the #34...it's a tough stamp! And following this U.S. Classics Category and other online tools like Stampsmarter can help a lot, and might pique anyone's curiosity to dive further into Dr. Chase, Mortimer Neinken, Stanley Ashbrook and others.
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Posted 07/03/2021   8:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The inappropriateness of the term "engraving recut" as noted by revcollector is not a matter of arbitrary nomenclature. "Engraving" in the production of stamps as it was done in the mid-19th century refers to the creation of the original master die by an engraver, i.e. an artisan. When recuts appear on printed stamps it is not the engraving, or the master die, that was recut (strengthened in places using a hand tool), but the actual recessed image on the printing plate. These recessed images are not engravings, they are transfers from an image in relief that was itself created from the engraved die.
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Posted 07/04/2021   11:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stamp Hunting to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is just to thank all of you for posting on this thread for being informative, entertaining, and as always freely giving of your time and your own personal expertise. You may not realize how much this information helps so many more people than just the OP.

I've only been a member for a short time, but have been a lurker for many years. I have been referred to this forum more times than I can count when researching my latest finds. Google is definitely this forums best buddy.

So Thank you all again. Keep posting, keep jousting with each other.

And as PPG stated:

I now will leave with good wishes to you, but as I don't know which nomenclature you follow, I leave you two versions:

1. Live long and prosper.
2. May the force be with you.
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