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Germany, 1948, American-British Occupation

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Pillar Of The Community

Romania
596 Posts
Posted 12/15/2021   5:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add cupram to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi,
The Mi#36-51 stamps in this series have a high proportion of counterfeit overprint.
It is good to have them in front of you with a strong magnifying glass when you decide to buy them.
I received this one, Mi#49, in a stamp mix.
The overprint should be typografied and not with these dotted edges that look like a string of sausages.
Of course the obliteration is underneath the overprint.
How stupid can these forgers be with their computer software and printers?
Please if you have a genuine overprint post it as an example for comparison with my fake.





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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
Posted 12/15/2021   8:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add poofo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm an avid collector of WWII Europe. My collection spans late 1920 to about 1950 -- with the stuff before/after the war mostly war/politics related. I hate to say this, but all the fake post-war overprints have really frustrated me to the point that I simply decided not to even try and collect that stuff... It's hard enough weeding through all the fake postal stationary and postmarks.

That said, I have started working on an AMG collection. Right now I'm focusing on the am post issues, and staying away from the AMG overprints.
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1012 Posts
Posted 12/15/2021   10:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Oh wow. Thank you for sharing this knowledge. I have many of these- did not realize so many are fakes. Would someone mind sharing one that is not forged? Thank you…off to scrutinize mine…
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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
Posted 12/15/2021   11:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add poofo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Mrita75:
Oh wow. Thank you for sharing this knowledge. I have many of these- did not realize so many are fakes. Would someone mind sharing one that is not forged? Thank you…off to scrutinize mine…


I don't have an image of one, but you can learn a lot about the various forgeries in the "GPS Forgery Manual Volume V" published by the "Germany Philatelic Society".

They have a digital version you can buy and download, but the images are too small to really help with these overprints. The paper version is much better:

https://store.germanyphilatelicsoci...n-1945-1949/
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
3224 Posts
Posted 12/16/2021   02:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The dots you show can be artifacts of solvent remaining on a typographic printing plate as is the heavy ink buildup on the edges of the posthorn to its left. The forgeries that were created around the time of issue are also typographed. This is not a relatively modern forgery made by computer printer.

A first test is that many but not all forgeries are printed in a very shiny ink where the genuine are in matte/dull ink. More later. Time to sleep.
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Pillar Of The Community
Romania
596 Posts
Posted 12/16/2021   07:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cupram to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hy-brasil-I took a closer look at the overprint and indeed it is typography
I found on a website examples of offset and laser printer forgeries.
poofo- thanks for the reference, but like you, I stayed away from these overprints.
This is my only stamp...fake unfortunately.
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Posted 12/18/2021   10:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here are a couple of mine. What should I be looking for to identify if the overprint is fake. Thanks - was really just curious - I have yet to catalogue these stamps - I have quite a variety with overprint type a and b.


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Pillar Of The Community
Romania
596 Posts
Posted 12/19/2021   05:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cupram to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Mrita75
I've been waiting for someone (hy-brasil unfortunately gave up) to continue the explanation for these overprint.
I looked for information on the website "stampsx.com" (it is in German and the dialogue is hard to understand)
Some clues as I understood them (it would be good to be corrected if I am wrong) would be:
-overprint offset or laser printer =forgerie
-overprint typo =??=genuine/forgerie (these are ink color judgments-browner black on genuine)
-post horn circles have slight differences in genuine overprint (identical circles=forgerie)
-at the bottom of the circle there are 4 lightning bolts (2 left and 2 right)
in forged overprint they look like a row of dots and without the arrow at the end.
-the top and bottom chain links show rounding at the ends of the genuine overprint (more flattened in forged overprint-but can also appear in genuine depending on the amount of ink on the printing plate).
With my recently gained knowledge on "stampsx.com" my opinion is that the overprints are genuine.
I welcome any counter-arguments, because that's how we can learn.
George
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United States
3224 Posts
Posted 12/20/2021   12:47 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry, but I haven't given up. I have been looking for clear forgeries with available time without success. I disposed of any I had long ago since they were common enough and often badly done. Those might have been the shiny overprint forgeries on the Numeral issue only, though.

The currency reform control overprints on the Workers stamps are generally very cheap stamps. There are forgeries of the Worker overprints, but we should be more concerned about the forgeries on the Numeral issue with the same overprints plus varieties and errors on the Workers issue.

Here's the used key value of the Workers found online (Mi 49I):

reported signed by Schlegel. This is one of the carmine/red shades and not a cheap brown shade.

For the Workers issue overprints, there is a great variety of impressions, ranging from being overstruck to being rather dry and missing tiny details. Mint stamps often show impressions in the paper, but with forgeries also existing typographed, it's not a reliable characteristic to use. Further, the impression flattens out on genuine used stamps often enough.

The genuine band overprint is not always perfectly aligned with the stamp or stamp design but is pretty close. It also can be high, low or in the middle of the stamp. There are errors where the band runs vertically.

If the band design doesn't go all the way across the stamp, it's a forgery.

There all kinds of genuine varieties and errors, like printed on gum side, double overprints, and on and on. It suggests that the overprints were done hastily to meet the release date for the currency reform.

But from my written notes, for whatever you think that's worth, the forgeries I encountered were rather poorly done, probably photographic reproductions of the genuine but with distortion and lack of detail. The posthorn ring often does not have even thickness. As cupram notes, the lightning bolts are more dots than jagged shapes, but see the 60pf above. So we must consider the print quality of the overprint, too.

The two dongles below the posthorn ring are tassels, and are more uneven from posthorn to posthorn on forgeries vs. the originals. The genuine have some variability, too. The genuine tassels are not ovals but are typically flattened at the bottom. But now note Mrita's 40pf network overprint. The tassels are skewed because the ring is elongated (apparently on two posthorns). This is a known variety type but not listed in my old Michel for this value(?) The elongated rings are known in various plate positions, are different and I believe do not always have tassels skewed like this.

I think Mrita's examples are genuine, too.
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Edited by hy-brasil - 12/20/2021 12:52 am
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 12/20/2021   11:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrita75 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hy-brasil, this is great. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, so very interesting. I hope it is ok to share more examples on here - not necessarily for any evaluation, but I think it would be cool to see all the variations, forgeries, etc.
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Valued Member
Brazil
27 Posts
Posted 02/05/2022   10:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Klauskla to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi
I got this stamp and I could not find any information about it. It seems this one is quiet rare and is even not listed in some catalogues. But I can´t figure out if it is a forgerie, since the ink of the impression is very pale.
What do you mean?
Thanks!
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United States
761 Posts
Posted 02/05/2022   11:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
klauskla, definitely a forgery.
In general, these overprints are one of the many minefields in German philately.
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Valued Member
Brazil
27 Posts
Posted 02/05/2022   11:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Klauskla to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, that's what I expected.
Are the real ones really that rare? Even Wikipedia doesn't know them!
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
2025 Posts
Posted 02/06/2022   8:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Just_fella to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
No clue about these, I don't collect them.
Just happened across them and remembered this thread.
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Pillar Of The Community
Romania
596 Posts
Posted 02/07/2022   06:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cupram to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@klauska-the value stamps in Mark were not overprinted.
The overprint in your stamp is not even typographied.
I'm curious where you read about the existence of this overprinted stamp.

@just-felia the overprint is over inked and I can't distinguish pro genuine or forgery features.
In my opinion it is a typo overprint but the ink is too diluted and too dark compared to genuine.
This is a beginner's opinion and I hope I am not right
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Valued Member
Brazil
27 Posts
Posted 02/07/2022   08:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Klauskla to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
searching on the internet I found one of these stamps for sale:

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=l...661&lot=3227

It was certified...
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