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Q-4 Which Is The Plate Variety & Why - Exploring Plate Varieties Beyond Calling Everything A Reentry

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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 05/15/2023   12:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
My original assumption is that the dot-in-T was NOT a deliberate part of the design, hence a plate variety. This seems obvious, because, why put it there?


Partime, the red dot of ink you see on the base of the "T" in "Cents" on the plate number 6347 single is just a splash or smear of ink on that stamp. It is not repeated on the second plate number 6347 as shown. The two plate numbers are from the same position on the plate.

Essay_Proof just made a comment upon it:
Quote:
Indeed. That and more. Not being intimiately familar with these stamps, what first caught my eye was this "dot-in-T". Images below are screenshots taken from the first post.


The question in my OP is about the dot (spot) in the the right "4"
Quote:
French's list a known position as having "Spot in tail of right numeral". However, this is as being in ALL positions of plate 6359, 6365, and 6392. I guess he missed plate 6347.


With Cloudy French's listing in his book, I again ask my original question which is the plate variety, with the dot or without the dot and why? In short is Cloudy's reported listing wrong?

And yes Pl # 6347 has the spot in the right numeral in all plate positions and all stamps shown above.


Quote:
However, since it appears in ALL positions of a particular plate number, then it could be called a die variation. (For some Australian stamps, this could be called a "secret mark".)


The USA has secret marks on some stamp issued in the 1800s to show which printing company printed a stamp.

Here the spot of color in the right "4" specifically in the tail of the right 4 was not a secret mark.

As you noted Cloudy's spot in the "4" is on all positions of the plates.

Edit: I like building shovels, but hate using shovels. Same with computers. However, I went to my inner geek and forced it to find a way to make better illustrations. Here is the result, a Q4 Die Proof from the only Q4 Die made. In addition to seeing it as populated, it should be able to be enlarged.


This is from Siegle, not the copy I own.

Now I am off to play further.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/15/2023 2:28 pm
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 05/15/2023   2:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A better image of the misaligned entry of the the "16" in Plate Number "6169" UL.




This one is better that the first I posted but does not enlarge. I will review that later.
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Posted 05/15/2023   2:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Cloudy French also missed Plate #6170 which has the Spot in the right 4 (in the tail) on all positions as well.

Here the top image is cropped from the plate block shown lower. It cannot be expanded by clicking on it while the plate block can. However the crop image is bigger (more detailed).



Note the layout dot above the "C" and between the plate numbers at the bottom, lay outlines too. All plate varieties.



There maybe more plate numbers with the spot in the right tail. What started me on this quest pre 2000 was that the plate numbers listed by Cloudy all went to press after 1-1-1913. I needed to show that there were some (or one) with the spot of color which went to press BEFORE 1-1-1913 and thus available for sale on or prior to 1-1-1913 for use om 1-1-1913.

Eventually I did. Such is much easier now with the internet and so many images available. Me, I needed to go to every stamp show and look at each dealer's stock of Q4, plate # singles, plate number pieces or panes. It took several years of looking to find what I needed, if it existed.

Edit:

Quote:
My logic goes like this - if something is uniformly repeating... same thing over and over again - it's not the only one of it's kind and therefore yes, I could call it - it's own variety... by mistake, design, design flaw, human error, mechanical, etc. it repeats. If it's a definition I don't understand - then I've yet to learn the definition of variety.


Well souldjer777, here is where the question why comes into play. Yes, for some plate numbers the spot of color is on all positions. However for more plate numbers there is no spot of color on all positions. WHY IS THAT? It is pure luck that there are no known plates which have both no spot and a spot on some images. (One would need to visit the plate proofs at the BEP or National Postal Museum as I am unaware that all plate number and position panes of Q4 exist in the wild. My last visit was just looking at the Special Handling Plate Proofs. Wished I new then to see the Q4 proofs.-- Some proofs are line from the Smithsonian, some day I may take a look.)

I have posted enough information in text and images for you to answer this question.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/15/2023 3:14 pm
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Posted 05/15/2023   5:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add souldjer777 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's taken me a while to nail down what a re-entry is. Essentially you need well defined / bold inking - not smudges or streaks - you need parts or whole parts of the original stap design entered again or re-entered into the same stamp. A single dot wouldn't be considered a re-entry. The re-entry has to show contours, forms and or shapes of the original design... does not have to be the entire stamp design entered again. The re-entry will almost give the stamp another dimension if the re-entry is close enough to the original design. An almost 3D picture may appear... like putting two circles on top of each other just barely out of allignment. You have a variety and a re-entry here... if you are looking for my opinion.
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Edited by souldjer777 - 05/15/2023 5:02 pm
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Posted 05/15/2023   5:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Souldjer777, are you trying to say all positions on many plates have the exact same re-entry?
The most logical explanation would be that the dot appears on the die itself.
If there are sheets that have no dot and sheets that have the dot, the most logical explanations are that It either occurred at some time, or at least two (trasnfer) dies were in use.
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Posted 05/15/2023   5:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Essentially you need well defined / bold inking - not smudges or streaks


No, but almost! What you need is a depression in the printing plate which holds ink which is then transferred to the paper during printing. The "depressions" in a plate are the lines and voids which produce a negative of the finished printed image. During the process of using the "transfer roll" to place the images on the plate, extra, unintended "depressions" can occur as well as intended extra "depressions" such as layout dots, lines and arcs. While necessary for plate making those marks are not particularly intended to show. The expectation is that they will disappear when the final version of the plate is polished (which wears away surface metal) are minor surface defect are scoured away.

Now the line "depressions" which remain can only print when they hold transferable ink. Thus the real tiny depressions may only appear when the plate is ink slightly or more than average (or wiped less thoroughly than average) such that the depression will transfer ink. Now as plates are used, friction wears them away and some of the minor extra depression disappear. In early US stamps, it was not uncommon for even the intended design element depression to be worn away.

Edit:
So splatters, splotches and smears of ink occur regularly on top of the printing plate as part of the normal production process. They show in random places without regularity. However if there is an extra depression on the plate that holds ink, it will repeat exactly in the same place as more images are printed. The errant depression captures ink always in the same relative position to the rest of the stamp design and placed (prints) it ink in the same spot on the finished stamp image.

I need to run, but I will be back in a few hours with more.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/15/2023 5:46 pm
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Posted 05/15/2023   5:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
As to sharpness and detail of some images, I point you to the die proof above where you can see the tiny pinholes at the four corners just beyond the design which were used to hold the paper still during the pulling of the proof image. That is a trait of P2a, Panama Pacific Die Proofs and is both normal and universal to the P2a proofs.


The above quote is from my TEST thread in the test section of the forum.

I repeated the quote above as it had information about the posted proof.

For souldjer777, if you look at that thread it will answer your earlier question/comments about the image quality of some of the images in this thread. I did not link that thread here as it will disappear in a few day and should last no loner than seven. if you follow the instructions to where the images can be found, you can download much more detailed version than can be uploaded on to SCF (here).
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Posted 05/15/2023   7:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You have a variety and a re-entry here... if you are looking for my opinion.


I hope that is not the answer to my question which for easy of reading and as a refresher:
Quote:
Below are two examples of Sc #Q-4, the four cent parcel post stamp of 1913 showing the Rural Carrier.One is listed in French's Encyclopedia of Plate varieties, one is not. My question as noted in the title is which one is the plate variety and why.


and


Quote:
Edit:
That said, I failed to mention in the OP, the focus of this discussion is the right "4" of the design


Here are the images from the OP--





And a die proof image--



Look at all three images, think and try again. If you want a hint NSK gave you one. I trust you will have an moment.
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Posted 05/15/2023   10:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add souldjer777 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
6169 - appears to be a re-entry
. in 4's - appears to be a variety
That's what I meant - sorry to confuse. That's all folks =p
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Edited by souldjer777 - 05/15/2023 10:12 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
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Posted 05/15/2023   10:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ZebraMan to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
With Cloudy French's listing in his book, I again ask my original question which is the plate variety, with the dot or without the dot and why? In short is Cloudy's reported listing wrong?

Quote:
If there are sheets that have no dot and sheets that have the dot, the most logical explanations are that It either occurred at some time, or at least two (trasnfer) dies were in use.


I vote for the latter (at least two transfer dies were used, one with the dot, and another without). Seeing the dot in the plate proof I first thought it was an accident that was later corrected over time, but if so, I would expect the dot to appear on the majority of early plate numbers, and then disappear on the majority of later plate numbers, but this does not seem to be the case. The dot comes and goes at random. I say at least two dies, possibly 3 (1 with dot, 2 without).

6169 - no dot
6170 - dot
6171 - no dot
6172 - no dot
6345 - no dot
6346 - no dot
6347 - dot
6350 - no dot
6359 - dot
6360 - no dot
6361 - no dot
6365 - dot
6392 - dot


(sorry for low res scan, can't see the dots very well, if you need a better scan of individual stamps to see the dots (or lack thereof), I can do that).

So which one is the variety? I am still stumped. The one with the dot is the most logical one to be called the variety because it looks like an aberration. But if the die proof has the dot, then I think more accurately the stamps with the dot removed would be the variation from the original design.
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Posted 05/15/2023   11:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cjd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So which one is the variety?


This is the sort of question that will break the Internet.
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Posted 05/15/2023   11:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essay_proof to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
PPG,

Couldn't find that proof on the Siegel site. Could you provide a link pls? I'd like to read the description. Also, you mentioned you have a proof. Is it a Panama-Pacific SDP?

Cheers,

E/P
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Posted 05/16/2023   01:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...a better scan of individual stamps to see the dots (or lack thereof), I can do that....


I will give a hardy, "Thank you!" if you we to do that.

To review or explain the process for those to whom this is new information:

Stamps designs are suggested, drawings or models (mock-ups) are made, reviewed and changed as directed (Here by the Postmaster General of the USPOD). More models are made, and when approved, the model is engraved into a die. The die impression is taken and sent for final approval. If not approved the die is considered a die essay (unreleased design). Further changes are made as directed until a final die is approved. Yet die approval may not yet be final. The 50 cent Parcel Post Die was approved, transfer rolls made and the plate sent to press. During the first press run the Postmaster General changed his mind. He request the back ground barn and the tower (silo) be eliminated. This had the cows on the "Dairying" stamp stand out even more in the design.

If approved, that die becomes the working die after the metal is hardened. This is a negative (reversed) image of the design. The die is then used to make a transfer roll in soft metal. The transfer roll is then hardened. It is a positive of the design, meaning it looks correctly like the stamp with all high points where the lines of ink color would appear on the finished stamp.

The transfer roll is then used to impress images into the soft metal of a soon to be printing plate, image by image. This is when layout lines, dots, arcs and oops I dropped a tool are added by the sideographer so the transfer roll images line up on the plate correctly. When done, the plate is polished, hardened and sized for the press used. If all goes correctly, the plate images are exactly similar to the image pulled from the die. When they are not the PV (plate variety) collectors have reasons to be joyful.

Of course a pressman needs to get the plate and install it on the press. This allows for bangs, scrapes, oopses and other insults to the plate during handling. After a press run the pressman needs to remove the plate and put it away. For the next press-run use it is retrieved and installed on the press then removed again. This is repeated as often as necessary until the plate is no longer used in production. Each subsequent handling allows for bangs, scrapes, oopses and other insults to the plate during handling.

Since we have stamps with the spot of color in the right tail of the "4" and stamps without now what .

We see the die has the dot of color. There was only one die made, P.O. Die #563.

That die was used to make not one, not several but eight transfer rolls; specifically transfer rolls, 779, 780, 781, 782, 892, 893, 894 and 895.

At least two of the transfer rolls were put into production to make 13 plates with numbers:

6169, 6170, 6171 and 6172 were all finished on 11-14-1912 and sent to press for the first time 12-2-1912.

6345, 6346, 6347 and 6350 were all finished on 1-21-1913 and sent to press for the first time 1-22-1913.

6359, 6360, 6361 and 6365 were all finished on 1-27-1913 and sent to press for the first time 1-28-1913.

6392 was finished 2-10-1913 and sent to press the first time 4-7-1913.

While they should exist, I do not have records for which transfer rolls were used to make which plates. As each transfer roll was made each would have the dot of color in the tail of the right 4 which on the transfer roll would be a small bulge, convexity or protuberance in the size of the spot of color. Thus during the finishing of the various transfer rolls, one or more had the small bulge, convexity or protuberance, AKA, "spot" polished right off of the image design, either by choice or by unintended action. For at least one transfer roll, the "spot of color" as on the approved die was not removed.

So as the APPROVED, by the Postmaster General, die had the spot of color, that was how the stamp should look and as it was intended to look. THUS the stamps with the spot of color are correct and the stamps without the the spot of color are the plate varieties as that is how the production facts align.

Cloudy French had it backwards in his book. However until the die proofs could be compared to the stamps the assumption was the spot was the flaw and thus plate variety. now some 44 years later I will generalize and say I knew he was wrong because I obtained my die proof within months of the release of his book. Such was not done until after he published his book and it took someone like me, very interested in Parcel Post, happening to own a proof PLUS caring about tiny plate varieties. This published (wrong) information was considered correct and caused me my problem. I owned an example of a 1-1-1913 cancelled mail piece with two four cent PP stamps both of which were examples of the "with spot" in the right 4. According to Cloudy such stamps could not have been available for use on 1-1-1913 as all listed plate numbers with the spot went to press after 1-1-1913. I wasted my money, except owning the proof I knew I still salvage a win.

My several year search at the time was for any of the four plate numbers which went to press 12-2-1912 to be sent to the post offices and available for use on 1-1-1913 with the "spot of color". I found plate # 6170 as the only one of the first four plates sent to press in 1912. Thus certificates could be issued for my example of 1-1-1913 parcel post stamp usages as well as a second example with a four cent with spot of color. The second cover piggyback on the paperwork as both went in for certificates together.

Later I participated in reversing the certificate on the second one due to a fraudulent cancellation. While it was 1-1-1913, two issues arose, with further examination it was found that the dimensions of the 1-1-1913 cancellation did not match the actual dimensions of the known real cancellation device. So several years later I got a call about that and advised I had only supplied paperwork about just the spot of color. I had no reason to be concerned about the cancel as it was not my item. I advised I did not look at anything beyond the 4 cent stamp, but hold on. When I returned to the phone I advised I looked up the post office to find 1-1-1913 was during the several month period that that post office was closed for relocation. That sealed the case the cover was faked. The known real cancellation device was used before and after the brief closure. The original certificate was overturned. And that became its own mid-five figure sh show.

I am stopping here to allow everything to be absorbed. I will later explain how to determine a transfer roll flaw caused plate variety as well as explain two other unique occurrences with parcel post plates.

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Posted 05/16/2023   01:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
PPG,

Couldn't find that proof on the Siegel site. Could you provide a link pls? I'd like to read the description. Also, you mentioned you have a proof. Is it a Panama-Pacific SDP?


My 4 cent is a P2a, the die proofs pulled for the display at the San Francisco 1915 Panama Pacific International Exhibition in the Model Post Office.

Siegel Sale 1053, 2013-10-09, lot 218 is the set from which my image was taken.

They have handled red PP P2a "sets" five times with all such listed sales after I owned mine. I write "sets" as one included a nearly complete set, lacks the 25c value, which is present as a large die proof (Q9P1) cut down to size of the other proofs.


When I do my power search I set the key word to "parcel" (you need to click over in the right side area of the text box to wake it up sometimes). In the "SYMBOL" scroll box I select "proof" then I go up and click the search button and get 11 returns. Some are JQ or non-P2a proofs. I think my JQ1-5 P2a set also predates the sales date listed. I would need to dig up the about 40 year old receipt to be sure. But Stanley Pillar indicated to me that the set he sold me did not come from a Siegel sale.

Edit: To add "Siegel." And to say I have other PP/PPPD proofs, essays and models, but none others of Q4.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/16/2023 01:43 am
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Posted 05/16/2023   01:49 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essay_proof to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks PPG. It looked like a Panama Pacific proof but I wanted to confirm with you. That's some mighty fine sleuthing you've done.
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