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Need Help With An Argentina Watermark

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Valued Member
United States
81 Posts
Posted 07/18/2023   3:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add TNPhil to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have a copy of what could be either a Scott #221 or 270, a 10c gray green San Martin. However the watermark is neither #87 (honeycomb) nor #88 (multiple suns) as given in the catalog (2012 issue), but is clearly on paper with watermark #288, the RA in sun with straight rays. The best I can tell from the catalog, though, is that watermark #288 was not used before 1942. What am I missing?
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Netherlands
6526 Posts
Posted 07/18/2023   3:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Could #221 be #237?
#270 (1920) has a sun watermark as you describe. There, however, is the flat sun variety that may be #310 (1922). Maybe you are talking about the flat sun?

Maybe you can post pictures of the front and back, preferably scans.
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Edited by NSK - 07/18/2023 3:32 pm
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1017 Posts
Posted 07/18/2023   4:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, definitely need pictures...
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Valued Member
United States
81 Posts
Posted 07/18/2023   4:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add TNPhil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, here some scans, not sure how they will appear here, not very experienced with stamp scans. I've enhanced the watermark.




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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
6526 Posts
Posted 07/18/2023   4:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Is that blue colour what you are seeing? Or did you enhance it? This appears like someone drew a watermark on the back of the stamp.
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Valued Member
United States
81 Posts
Posted 07/18/2023   4:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add TNPhil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I used an image program to adjust the contrast on the stamp so the watermark would be more visible, resulting in the blue color of the watermark. I was concerned the watermark might not show up when posted here. I'll include the original scan below.

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Netherlands
6526 Posts
Posted 07/18/2023   5:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A guess: this stamp has perf. gauge 13 1/4 and not 13 1/4 x 12 1/2.
It is a 1922 Variant of #310, not listed by Scott.

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Valued Member
United States
81 Posts
Posted 07/18/2023   5:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add TNPhil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thought you had it there for a moment NSK, but the perfs measure 13 1/4 x 12 1/2.
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Netherlands
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Posted 07/18/2023   5:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Then it must be #310.

It is the flat sun watermark.
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Edited by NSK - 07/18/2023 5:34 pm
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Canada
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Posted 07/18/2023   7:30 pm  Show Profile Check gmot's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add gmot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If the perfs are 13.25x12.5 it is Scott 310B, 310 is the 13.25x13.25 stamp. Both issued in 1922-23.
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United States
81 Posts
Posted 07/18/2023   7:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add TNPhil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Gmot- Ok, thanks, my 2012 Scott doesn't list the 310B. Is that in a more recent issue of the Scott Standard catalog, or in the Classics specialized?
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Canada
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Posted 07/18/2023   9:28 pm  Show Profile Check gmot's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add gmot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's in both standard and classic 2021 editions. Not sure when they added the separate cataloguing for perfs for those series.

~Greg
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Valued Member
United States
81 Posts
Posted 07/19/2023   08:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add TNPhil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks so much for your help Greg, and NSK too. I will mount the stamp according to this new information. I am still a bit puzzled though about the watermark. Those 1922-23 issues are listed in Scott with watermark 90, which has an angular ray connecting the suns. The stamp we have been discussing has a straight ray connecting the suns, like watermark 288 in Scott.
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Netherlands
6526 Posts
Posted 07/19/2023   09:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The picture I posted has the same watermark as the 13 1/4 x 12 1/2. This watermark has straight rays connecting the flattened suns.
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Canada
1462 Posts
Posted 07/19/2023   09:40 am  Show Profile Check gmot's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add gmot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There's considerable variation in that watermark - sometimes the rays connect, other times not, sometimes look pretty straight, it started use in the 1920s. The "straight rays" watermark isn't used until 1942.

See picture from the Jalil specialized Argentina catalogue. At top - Sol Redondo (O) = wmk 90. At bottom - Sol con rayos rectos (R) = wmk 288. You can see a lot of variation in how the rays connect the suns in the top image.

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Edited by gmot - 07/19/2023 09:41 am
Valued Member
United States
81 Posts
Posted 07/19/2023   11:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add TNPhil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, thanks for the reminder NSK, I had forgotten to go back to that picture before I posted.

gmot, that picture from the Jalil catalog is a great help, and tells us that the way watermarks actually look is not always as cut and dried as the illustrations in Scott appear.

Really appreciate all of the information from both of you! It has been a great learning experience.
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