Discussion: Dealer Knowingly Bids Against His Customers Then Offers The Item To The Customer Anyway.

Can we start a discussion on my story below as to how, if at all, you would deal with this situation? I welcome comments from both collectors (buyers) as well as sellers (dealers). While this is a US based dealer he does travel the world.

There is a dealer who sells at shows, on the internet via his own website and as a seller on ebay. While that can and may describe many professional retail dealers, the one I have in mind openly and knowingly bids against his customers for items he thinks his various customers want. He is also the type of dealer who runs around during set up trying to collect all the material he can find from other dealers which fit his customer's areas of interest to sell them to the identified customer.

The dealer also attempts sweeps at shows but the poaching dealer lies about that when confronted, especially when the dealer with the item refuses to "lend" or sell the item for potential sale at the show by the poacher. In one of these cases I got him to return the item back to the original dealer from where I purchased it later by telling the poaching dealer I would never buy the piece from him at any price, even if the price was the same or less than the owning dealer would charge. I also added that I knew poacher had it because the dealer told me he brought it to the show for me and poacher poached it.

Yes, later at a very recent show, he tried to take an item from a dealer, my item, when he saw it. Alas for the poacher, the dealer caught him and advised the item was spoken for. Specifically the dealer and I made our deal via mail order and arrange the exchange at the stamp show. That was the attempted poaching the dealer bald faced denied. The dealer with whom I had made the deal mention the poacher's behavior during our dinner the night of show set up.

At the show proper, the poaching dealer offered me items which I identified where he got them ( ebay). On one item I told him that it was I who had advised the seller to update the listing to mention the fact a stamp was missing (I even mention what denomination was missing). This this time I clearly stated I would not buy any of the times he purchased from ebay I recognized. I did not tell him that I figured it was him as I ran the bid up with no intention of buying some of the items on ebay.

There was one item I recently purchased which had climbed to a price not normally seen for such items. When I went back, I confirmed that Poacher Dealer had run the item up, but I did not mention it to him the next day as there was on snipe which came in topping Poacher's bid by less then one increment. I in turn topped the high bid with 22 cents to spare with my snipe.

He offered me other items he did not buy on ebay but I identified each as one I had previously seen and where I saw them. I also said I would pass on them, for the same reason. Of course, I had passed on them previously at the much, much lower price the prior owner had on the item.

Now to be fair, the Poacher does mention a "collector in (pick location half a world way)" who specializes in my specific area and will offer it to him if I pass. Well, that is possible, but if it was the case, why would poacher dealer return an item back to the original dealer when I clearly said I would refuse to ever buy the item? I guess he wasn't sure Mr. Half-a-world-away-collector would buy it, should he actually exist. Plus if Mr Hawac is such a good buyer, why does he still have Items I passed on 12 or more months ago.

Let the discussion begin!

The one option, NEVER doing business Poacher again is off the table. Like a blind truffle pig he finds things occasionally. I did bring home one item, and only one of his items, which I was advised twice could not be discounted. A twenty percent discount materialized when it seemed to him I was going to even leave that item behind. Poacher had no idea the item, an incoming parcel from abroad, was a particularly unusual item. On May 15th, 1957 the separate, customs clearance fee, previously 15 cents and the 5 cent package delivery fee were no longer individual. after nearly half a century, they were permanently combine together that day with the fee raise to 33 cents. If the item under the old rules qualified for only one fee or the other, you now paid both. The item I purchased was mailed the second day of the new fee structure. I could live with that.

Just one initial comment given the late hour. This scenario brings up the same exact behavior I have seen from a seller from the North East. One time, when targeting a dealer assumed to be close to retirement, this seller, assuming he is the same one, was in such a frenzy to rush across the show floor his jeans fell almost to his knees before he took a second to hike them back up. Oddly, he only made an offer on countries from A-C!

Has to be the same seller mentioned by Parcel Post.

Your not going to like my reply here and I expect this opinion to be in the minority. Now I might understand this wrong but as far as ebay is concerned. The dealer in question has an equal right to an item as you do. ie the dealer can scour ebay, Delcampe, Hipstamp for items that his/her customers want. Now the dealer should not be poaching items that you already have spoken for with another dealer if the dealer knew their was a pre-exisiting agreement. But did the said dealer know that before inquiring or purchasing at the show that the item was already spoken for? And the other dealer just has to say the item is spoken for. Inquiring if an item for sale is okay. ie, the dealer also has equal right in a show to purchase an item. There is not a monopoly from buyers on sources you can buy stamps from. Dealers are allowed to compete with you for items and then sell it to you for more if they get to it first. I lost plenty of auctions to dealers and bidders that I compete with. Early bird gets the worm. And I often see items where I lost go up for sale, and if I want the item after thinking about it more, well I have to pay up. My feeling is that you are trying to acquire rare or scarce items. And you have a dealer who is willing to put in the work to find you or his/her customers the items. We all compete in the same ecosystem and no buyer or dealer has a monopoly over the outlets of where you can buy.

Where your story - the dealer has not had an opportunity to tell his side of the story - suggests this dealer - that you give a highly suggestive alias - is trying to cut you off from other suppliers, the opposite view is that he is providing you a service by doing the searching for you. From your last paragraph, you seem to be fine with it when it is to your advantage.

The market to purchase is an open one. Just because he ran you up on ebay doesn't mean the majority (and I use that word intentionally) of auction houses run your bids up to your maximum offer. It never ceases to amaze me how many lots I win are at my maximum offer.

All you can do is not deal with him (except when he has an item you really want).

The lesson is (and I learned it long ago), a collector can keep his hand up at auction longer than a dealer can.

There's a joke about the stamp show held on a desert island. The punchline is that "there weren't any customers, but we all made money." Dealers are constantly buying amongst themselves, and it's fair to say that most dealers buy things at least in part because they think they have a customer who might buy it.

We all have to buy from somewhere, and if we buy at auction there is a chance of competing against our buyers. For my own part, I am more often buying bulk lots and it's uncommon that I would buy an individual item with a specific plan to offer it to a specific buyer. Dealers can provide value by doing the searching, but I agree that buying someone from under your customer's nose is poor form (and poor business).

Ok that woke me up and got me laughing for the morning.

Its difficult to give a blanket answer to this, as all cases will be different.

Some dealers really do provide significant value-add, in finding scarce items, and certainly legitimately earn their livelihood in doing so. If they beat me to a nice item, that I want, then I'll still certainly consider buying from them. If, however, they bid an item up to a ridiculous price, never-before-seen, then I will usually not be a buyer later. Usually. I may reconsider what value I place on the item (higher or lower).

There were quite a few occasions where I was the under-bidder to Bill Langs (I mean who hasn't been? ), and since he would mark his purchases way up, I pretty much never bought anything from him that I had underbid - on general principle. I did occasionally do business with him, however, and I was always happy with what I got.

Everyone just has to make buying decisions that you are comfortable with considering all context.

Except in large shows it is not a level playing field. Dealers can an do deals during set up when mere collectors are barred from entering.

And no, stampgreendraon, I have no issue with your response. I want a discussion, I am not looking for a right answer, should that even exist.

Edit: For spelling or lack thereof above and the additions below.




He provides a service searching where I will not be; he provides a disservice searching where I will be. A smart show dealer who likes repeat customers will tell me, go see so and so as he (or she) has an item you may like. Now that is a service.




I wholeheartedly must agree. In fact there have been and will be dealers I expressly ask to find certain things for me. I have a list of such knowledgeable dealers depending upon what it is I am looking for. Mr. Poacher is not and will not be on that list. His knowledge seems limited to "this looks like something I can sell" without being able to explain it, understand it nor discuss it. His best explanatory conversational comment is, "it is what it is." I understand he seems to be an expert in some area, but I have yet to meet a collector who can explain what that area is.

Parcelpostguy - There is no such thing as a level playing field with the exception of contracts and accepted rules ( ebay rules, auction house rules) The open market is the open market. The best strategy is to get to the other dealers before the dealer in question gets to them. For example, even before the bourse opens contact the dealers and reserve the items of interest if any. That way when the dealer goes to "sweep the floor" , there will be nothing to sweep up.
For an open discussion. Lets say this dealer outbids you on Ebay/auction house, Delcampe etc.. and then does not offer to sell the item to you but to another buyer. How would that make you feel?

"he provides a disservice searching where I will be" - Yes, from a buyer point of view and here I can see the frustration. But ebay is still part of the open market. The dealer still has the same right as every other bidder customer dealer or otherwise. Should the dealer be forbidden from bidding on select items on ebay? And second how is the dealer to know when a customer is bidding on an item. What if you were on vacation that day and missed it and the dealer got it for you?

The only moral problem I see here is with the dealer who promised you an item and then sold it anyways to the poacher.
As far as auctions go, the high bidder wins, that is life.
If I were you, I'd severe any deals or even communication with the poacher. Sure you won't get an item here and there, but so be it Another day, another chance.

You can't have it both ways complaining about the dealer and then you yourself behaving questionably:

"I did not tell him that I figured it was him as I ran the bid up with no intention of buying some of the items on ebay."

The original post is a bit convoluted, presumably for the sake of maintaining anonymity, so I'm not sure I get all of the nuance, but anyway...

1. As mentioned above, your issue in one of the scenarios should be with the dealer who sold an item reserved for you to the poacher, not with the poacher in that instance.

2. Dealers ALWAYS have an opportunity to deal strictly with one another before, during, and after shows. That's never going to change, nor do I see this as a problem. If you want to be able to to "play" during these periods, get a table at the show (yes I realize that is a ridiculous suggestion), or for those shows that offer it, pay the "floor dealer" fee to be able to walk the floor during show setup and before the show opens to the public. I pay a fee every year to do just this at Chicagopex.

3. I see ZERO problem with any dealer bidding or buying on ebay, Hipstamp, or any other anonymized online platform. I regularly find myself being outbid by Eric Jackson on ebay, and there is absolutely no problem with this (other than my wishing I had pockets as deep as his to pursue certain items... but that's a ME problem, not a HIM problem). The only time that a dealer has an obligation to NOT bid against you is when they are acting as your agent for a public auction. Yes, they have to execute all of the bids amongst customers that have contracted with him to act as their agent, but he should not also be bidding on his own behalf against those customers.

4. I also don't have a problem with a dealer trying to corner the market on an item that they know is in demand. As with #3, a dealer is not obligated to let you have an item at a lower price if they believe that it should sell for more, whether that items ends up being sold to you or a different cstomer. That's the nature of the free market system. Sure, you might not like that he's bidding on item X because he knows you want it, but that's been going on for decades if not centuries.

5. Lastly, in the case where the poacher grabbed an item the dealer had reserved for you... how do you know he knew it was for you? Was it marked "Hold for XXX"... and if so, why the hell was it left on the table or in inventory? Most dealers I know hold reserved items in the cabinet/under the table/in their bag... they don't get mixed in with saleable material. If it wasn't marked held for you, how do you know he didn't just recognize it as a scarce/unusual piece? Not sure the blame is appropriately placed here.

Collectors come in a full spectrum of personalities. Your dealer sounds like he hustles to make a living. Some people enjoy competition. They are eager to outsmart the crowd, like lane-changers on the expressway. I have learned to accept it and enjoy the hobby on my own terms.

I hung out at a stamp and coin shop in College, sort of worked there. Mostly just sorting stuff for store credit.
I did help out at one show, once we got set up, which didn't take long, he left to sell stuff he had in a briefcase.
Other dealers had specialties, and he would get stuff he bought at the shop, or at a different show.

My job was to help the other dealers who came. They had stuff for him, and some would just leave it with me. I'd put a post it with the name and
price asked.
Some had stuff waiting, and the guy I was with was very organized. Everything he left behind was labeled as who it was for, and priced. Along with a code that let me know
if the guy could take it with him to look at it, had to leave it and come back, or had to pay the asking.

Second lap of the room was finishing deals. All before the show opened.

It was a cool experience. One thing was there for a guy who could take it. Cool but obscure stuff I didn't know anything about. I was worried since he didn't come back until very late.
But when he did..... ask was something like $200. About an hour before the show ended he walked up to they guy I was with, thanked him and handed him a decent looking roll of bills.
Not 200, more like 2000. When he said he must have read the price wrong he just said he'd done very well and the stuff was way better than my guy thought. He gave him abit under half the sale. That was why he was allowed to just take stuff. He either came back to talk price right away, or would just pay, either then or after a following show. (Lots of shows back then always a couple every weekend)

There were envelopes set aside for regular customers too. All named and priced.

I think this is one of the best pieces of advice on this whole forum.

P.S. also love the "lane-changers" analogy!!