Scott #65 Indian Red? Who's An Expert?

Is anyone familiar with the Indian Red color variety of Scott #65? The only information I have found is from the write-up on the Siegel Auction site. They have sold the same copy three times since 2012, which is signed by Ashbrook. The Siegel stamp is stated to be from New York as is my stamp and the cancels appear to be identical. The first two images are of my stamp on cover, the third is an image of the Siegel stamp and my cover for comparison.

Colors do not translate on the internet nor computers.

Now what "experts do" is have a range of colors of the stamp in question and then compare In eyeball person.

Of course if it is the color that you hope for, only a certificate will clear up confusion. PF is the est bet.

My 2021 Scott Specialized doesn't show an Indian Red for Scott #65. It does mention the 3-cent lake now given as 66TC6 (trial color proof). Is my catalogue in error ... or am I missing something?
Added: Ahah, the Indian Red is a recent addition to Scott. Thanks for the info. And I think I'll invest in a new Scott this year.

A stamp-to-stamp comparison is always best, just looking for thoughts on the stamp color. And I prefer APEX.

Since, you're posting some great pictures. If you look at the third picture where you try to compare the stamps, you can see the difference. Also, when comparing picture 2 and the same stamp on picture 3, the colors are totally different !
In short, a computer will absolutely not display the correct color


Peter

For reference, here is the Siegel stamp:



Sale 1297, lot 144 .

4522: The comparison image was made from the previous sellers scan for postmark comparison. I was hoping someone in the community would have seen or owns a genuine IR copy and could tell me if it's close enough to bother with getting it certified. Siegel Auction images aren't very reliable, none of their 64's look pink across my computer.

I think the above is worthy of note to all.

I realize that color comparisons online are often worthless, but the fact that this is apparently a new addition to the Scott catalog is probably of interest to many readers, along with a picture of 'the' reference copy.

I doubt if anyone will be able to tell from these scans whether it is close enough or not. I actually saw the Indian Red stamp a while back, and I can't tell you. So I think you just have to decide whether it is worth spending the money to you to try to find out.

While I have nothing against the APEX, with 19th Century Stamps, the PF has a wonderful foundation of material (no pun intended) and is where the known copy was expertized, not once but twice as well as the PF should have the notes still around. The PF also has a better likelihood of recalling the Ashbrook discovery shade for direct comparison if needed.

Many of the members here are familiar with some of the shades of this stamp, and I've posted a bunch of them over the years. Realizing that Scott lists less than 10 shades, many others have been identified. Mike McClung has published on several occasions the 54 shades that he has identified by date range using covers with month and year dates.

The problem is that Indian Red is not one of McClung's shades, so the only reference there is that I'm aware of would be the stamp that you have already shown here, with Stanley Ashbrook's description.

Here is the partial listing of McClung's shades for mid-late 1863:
Shade Period Rarity Factor
Pastel rose Mid 1863 3
Deep red rose Mid 1863 2
Deep rose Mid 1863 2
Dull red rose Mid 1863 1
Crimson rose Mid 1863 7
Pale yellow brown Mid 1863 6
Reddish claret rose Late 1863 5

Higher the rarity factor, the tougher it is to find the shade. As a point of reference, a pink from 1861 has a rarity of 7, and the pigeon blood pink is 9.

No way for anyone to help you with this, other than submitting the stamp to PF, and who knows if they have a reference copy. There are others that are not listed by McClung, and one of them I remember is "Raspberry", and the one I've seen was a beautiful, exotic shade.

Good luck. If you feel strongly that yours is what you "hope" it is, then you should consider submitting the stamp.

Ray

Thanks Ray, I appreciate the response. I've seen McClung's articles in the Chronicle. Is he still alive? Are there any images of his collection available on-line or maybe the APS library?

Not trying to abuse an expired equine, but color comparisons, to rule in or rule out, don't end well on line or in derived images found in modern publications.

Edited --




It has a cat of $5000 in the catalogs with it listed. The Siegel sale hammered at $2100 in their Sale session held 10-31-2023. So the catalog price will likely be adjusted for this currently unique certified copy.

Not trying to abuse an expired equine, but color comparisons, to rule in or rule out, doesn't end well on line or in derived images found in modern publications.

It's still a good starting point if you have nothing else available. McClung's "Colors in Print" article in the Chronicle may not have been exact, but there was some value (to me) in the side-by-side comparison of the various shades. Good place to start - not so good place to finish.

This image is of a pigeon-blood pink on cover that I once owned, it was certified by APEX. It's true that no matter how many times I adjusted the contrast and such, I couldn't match the exact color of the stamp, but you can still see how wild a color it is.

Mike had a health issue and that's when he disappeared from The Chronicle and from being an active ebay seller. I bought a bunch of covers from Mike, and he graciously ID'd the shade for me on each, written on the back of the cover in pencil.

I'm not aware of anything in print other than what was in The Chronicle. He did give me a file about 10-12 years ago that had 30 of his shades, but it isn't helpful. Again, as has been mentioned, you can't do this with images.