Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read








Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Help Identify A Registration Marking On Cover From US To Australia

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 8 / Views: 1,072Next Topic  
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
936 Posts
Posted 05/26/2024   1:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add mml1942 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
The registered cover illustrated below was mailed from Key West, FL on March 2, 1904, addressed to Sydney, New South Wales (Australia).

A Double Circle KEY WEST, FLA. date stamp is present on the cover front, along with a Straight Line "REGISTERED" marking at the left in violet. This "REGISTERED" Marking is assumed to be from the Key West Post Office. A manuscript "1298" in black ink at the left is assumed to be the Key West applied registration number for the letter.



The cover travelled to San Francisco in a sealed Registered Package Envelope, so there are no transit markings during its travel. Upon receipt at the San Francisco, CAL exchange office, it was backstamped with a March 12, 1904, DCDS, and the Exchange label #19787applied.



The cover would have travelled to Australia (NSW) in a sealed pouch, so no marking would have been applied in transit.

There is one additional marking on the front of the cover that is the subject of this post.



This does NOT have the characteristics of any US registration marking I have seen in the past. So where did it come from?

One speculation is that it was applied at the Sydney NSW post office on arrival. Can anyone confirm this speculation or provide another explanation.

Thanks to all for your help.


Mike
Send note to Staff
Edited by mml1942 - 05/26/2024 1:17 pm

Pillar Of The Community
United States
716 Posts
Posted 05/26/2024   2:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hoosierboy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Mike,

Yep, the "P.P.O. Reg'd. No." mark is the first one I have ever seen "if" it is a USPO S.F. PO marking. Please share any info or other examples you find.
Best regards, Russ
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
4276 Posts
Posted 05/26/2024   3:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not properly backstamped for registered mail coming out of a USPOD Post Office (Key West, FLA). May not have been entered into normal mail stream in Florida but handled as military mail to San Francisco being then received at the Presidio, assigned a registry number P.P.O. 82826 then transferred to the US mail in San Francisco via the SF Registry Division. From there the the exchange label 19787 added. As registered mail the Reg. Div. at SF may have handled it instead of SF's Foreign Division (F.D. marking).

The above educated GUESS gets me to include a reasonable stab at an office with a "P.P.O. Registry" marking.

Blow it up if you can.

Edit: Added one word, changed another and added a "s" to a third.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/26/2024 3:35 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Australia
3282 Posts
Posted 05/26/2024   5:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The P.P.O. Reg'd. No. marking was not applied in Sydney.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
6326 Posts
Posted 05/26/2024   6:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Not properly backstamped for registered mail coming out of a USPOD Post Office (Key West, FLA)


PPG, What "properly are you referring to? The regulations for mute cancel on the stamps and dated postmarks on the backflaops was not announced until November 1910, did not come into effect until January 1, 1911.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
4276 Posts
Posted 05/26/2024   9:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
PPG, What "properly are you referring to? The regulations for mute cancel on the stamps and dated postmarks on the backflaops was not announced until November 1910, did not come into effect until January 1, 1911.


Perhaps the word should be commonly. not properly. I do note that even without the formal regulations, the stamps were mute cancelled front and back as well as the SF PO did back stamp. Additionally while mml1942 gave a reason for no transit markings, the "P.P.O." was applied when the cover was not in a registry envelope.

Edit: To not be accused of being sloppy with "Presidio" I will say, yes there are several locations with Presidio in the name, but I am referring to the Presidio in the City and County of San Francisco, for which "Presidio" is one of the USPOD offices of the San Francisco Post Office. It was originally established September 17, 1776, eventually, by way of Mexico becoming part of the US in 1848 serving as a US Army Installation until 1988..
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/26/2024 9:22 pm
Pillar Of The Community
6326 Posts
Posted 05/26/2024   9:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have a hard time even with the phrase "not properly" as the registered mail regulations were very exacting and took up numerous pages in the postal laws and regulations volumes.

Mail "coming out" of the origin town would *not* be backstamped at this time period. I see nothing improper about how this handled at the origin P.O.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
936 Posts
Posted 05/27/2024   10:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mml1942 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bobby:
Thanks for helping rule out Sydney as the source of the "P.P.O." registration mark.

parcelpostguy:
Thanks for the suggestion about the Presidio. I think the only practical way to identify the mark from Presidio or other California post office is a similar marking on another cover with a more clearly defined origin.

John Becker & parcelpostguy:
A review of the PL&R for 1902, Sec.815, confirms that there was no requirement to apply a backstamp to the reverse of the cover.



The postmaster was instructed to include the registration number on the envelope at Sec. 817 paragraph 6 here:


On most registered letters where the postmaster provides this number, he would preface it with a manuscript "Reg", or perhaps place the number in proximity to the handstamped "REGISTERED" marking, and our Key West postmaster did not do this, so we are left to speculate whether the "1298" or the "28286" was the Key West registration number, or if the "1298" might have been applied by the recipient to identify this letter or for some other purpose.

Section 565 (mentioned above in Sec. 815) addresses the canceling of stamps .


Section 566 defines the use of the postmarking stamp on the address side of the envelope:


Section 567 deals with adjusting the date, while Section 568 addresses the requirement that only USPOD supplied ink must be used. These are not shown here.

By the above instructions, the letter was properly prepared, but we can only assume that the postmaster actually placed this registered letter in the required Registered Package Envelope addressed to the San Francisco Exchange Office, as instructed at Sec. 944.



If he did, then the letter would have been delivered directly to the San Francisco post office and its Registry Division.

The general instructions for the handling of outbound registered mail to a foreign destination at the Exchange Office begin at PL&R1902, Sec 955:



Postmasters (clerks) at the Exchange Office are instructed to postmark all such registered matter, but no instruction states whether this is to be on the front or reverse, although in practice, it is typically done on the reverse. At the same time, at Sec. 957, the Exchange Office is instructed to add the UPU mandated exchange label and to strike out other registration numbers. I rarely see this latter instruction to strike out previous registration numbers followed.




Once the exchange label is applied, and the Registered Letter Bill prepared, the registered letter and all others to the same destination are placed in a sealed bag and dispatched to the ship which will carry the mail to its foreign destination. This would end the processing at the Exchange Office.

So where did the "P.P.O." registration marking get applied?

Thanks to those who provided their thoughts. Keep the ideas coming, please.

Mike
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by mml1942 - 05/27/2024 10:44 am
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1053 Posts
Posted 05/27/2024   1:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ZebraMan to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't submit this idea earlier because it is wild speculation. The US Navy "Personal Property Office" is responsible for shipping personal belongings of service members, such as during a move. I don't know whether the P.P.O. office also handles shipping of ordinary mail (parcels or registered mail valuables) to friends and family, but it might allow it. I could not confirm whether said office existed in 1904 under the same name, so it could be a red herring, or it could be a lead.

fyi, ICYMI, the sender Dr. C.H. Gardner used to reside at the US Marine Hospital in Port Townsend WA around 1900-1901 and some nice "kicking mule" covers can be found sent by him, including this one from 1900 to the same Mr. Waddington in Sydney (different address).

Schuyler Rumsey auction 108 lot 1274. I did not see any P.P.O. markings on the 5 covers I found from Dr. Gardner out of Port Townsend.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
  Previous TopicReplies: 8 / Views: 1,072Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Go to Top of Page

Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2026 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.16 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05