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Top Frame Line Doubled

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Posted 06/11/2015   12:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add stampmaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Now we all have seen these First Issue Revenue stamps with doubled frame lines, no big deal. But of all the First Issued Revenues that I have this one is the best I've ever seen. Normally the lines are weak or not complete. And the distance between the two lines are more often than not closer together than on the stamp in question.

These stamps with the doubled frame line are very common, and I would not normally bother listing one, but this stamp shows the doubled frame very nicely.

The first image is just the top portion of the stamp in question.

The second image is of the entire stamp. Also notice the rather nice round hole cancel. One of the best holes I've ever seen on the first issue revenue stamps. Of course I've seen three or more hole cancels on these.

If any member has another first issue revenue stamp that shows an outstanding doubled frame line, please show them.







As you can see the stamp in question is R45C.

Cheers

David (Stampmaster)
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Posted 06/11/2015   07:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This appears to be a layout line that was not removed, rather than the classic "double frame line" which are usually caused by a slip transfer. Weak or incomplete "doubled frame lines" are also usually layout lines that were incompletely removed.
True "doubled frame lines" are not all that common, and will include the vertical lines on both ends, and will not simply be a straight line across without them such as this is.
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Posted 06/11/2015   09:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampmaster to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've never heard of this before!

So please give me an education, could you show me an example or two please?

Cheers

David (Stampmaster)
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Posted 06/11/2015   09:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know if I have any right now to post, but Dan (revenuecollector) must have some on his site.
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Posted 06/11/2015   1:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rustyc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think this is a true right frame line doubled as revcollector described, although I'm by no means an expert on such things.

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Posted 06/11/2015   3:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampmaster to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I checked Revenuecollector, he did not have one! Sure would like to see one, especially after you mentioned it and described it, a picture is easy for me to learn from!

rustyc thanks for your image, I have a number of these.

Cheers

David (Stampmaster)
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Posted 06/11/2015   4:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add southpaw to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's interesting. I assume the short vertical line just inboard from the right margin is also a layout line, and a tip-off that this is not your usual true doubled frame line?
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Posted 06/11/2015   7:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, that is the double frame line on the $5 charter party. On the 25 cent, that is probably another layout line, since it is directly in line with a position dot.
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Posted 06/11/2015   7:45 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't have an R45c (at least not that I've put on my website), but I have an R45a and R45b, and both show similar characteristics to the R45c in the first post.



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Posted 06/11/2015   9:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampmaster to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Revenuecollector, I looked on your site, unable to find anything. Where on your site are your two examples listed, how do I find them. In addition are they described?

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David (Stampmaster)
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Posted 06/11/2015   9:45 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Stamp/Cancel Search" at top left and then search by Scott number, or you can use the sitewide search at top right. The former is probably better, as it gives you a thumbnail listing of everything returned from items in my collection, whereas the top right is more of a Google-esque search that returns everything, including reference pages with items not from my collection.

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Posted 06/11/2015   11:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampmaster to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Revenuecollector, thanks, my previous searched for layout line. So my R45C appears to be almost an exact match to your two outstanding examples.

Revcollector, suggest you consider Revenuecollector's site remarks for his outstanding R45A and R45B, almost exactly as my R45C as you can see the stamp in question is a right and proper double frame line! Same orientation and appearance. You learn something new everyday!

Revenuecollector, thanks for teaching us all something new today, I'm always willing to and like to learn something new about stamps and stamp collecting.

Again, many thanks!

Cheers

David (Stampmaster)

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Posted 06/12/2015   07:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lines similar to these appear on several different types and values of first issue revenues, they are layout lines not double frame lines. Layout lines were created before the transfer positions were entered, double frame lines were created during the transfer process itself.
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Posted 06/12/2015   07:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
On the pair above, you might notice that the left stamp was entered somewhat lower than the right stamp, but the layout line over the left stamp is on a line with the right stamp. That line is where the stamp should have been entered, but the siderographer was off by a fraction and the line remained visible.
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Edited by revcollector - 06/12/2015 07:23 am
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Posted 06/12/2015   07:36 am  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Even if what we are seeing is technically an "extra layout line" rather than a "top frame line doubled", I contend that what is shown above is what Scott is referring to in the listing. They tend to use the simplest common denominator when it comes to terminology, and let's face it: to the naked eye it *IS* a top frame line doubled.

The same issue exists with respect to "cracked plate" vs. "scratched plate" and the front of the book "double impression". The vast majority of front-of-book so-called double impressions are merely kiss impressions, not true double impressions like R28e, R40e, etc., yet they get premiums usually reserved for real double impressions. Front-of-book collectors don't seem to differentiate between the two.

Virtually all of the 20th century Scott-listed revenue double impressions are actually kiss impressions as well, although the dollar premiums for those are more in line with what you would expect for kiss impressions... some of the premiums that front-of-book kiss impressions get are insane.
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Posted 06/12/2015   07:56 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lackemacher to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
On some of the first issue stamps an additional frame line was entered to "even off" the entry due to mis-alignment with the adjoining impressions . Some of the doubled frame lines were created by a mis alignment of the reentry of a particular position. The R 45c shown is a true double top frame line entered to even off the plate.
Layout lines are usually much fainter and show on adjoining positions. First issue plates vary widely as to which rows had layout lines, sometimes every row sometimes every other row, etc. Karl
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