A Question About US Postage Permit

Is there any documentation that suggests a permit holder imprint (even if not Pitney Bowes) was ever authorized prior to 1920? The earliest I have are from the 1930's and they all have a circular indicia that shows the city/state and date of use.

That is a very good question regarding period of use, which you had also posed earlier and remains unanswered in terms of citation. I don't collect them, so I know nothing about dates of usage. We'll have to see what the other more knowledgeable members say or can dig up...

k

Here is some additional information regarding permits, though it does not contain information about when they came into use.

http://pe.usps.gov/text/qsg300/Q604d.htm

In the 1920s, there was also "non-metered permit mail" in the US. A company printed its permit number and a postmark on letters using a machine that did not have a meter. Payment for postage was made when the mail was delivered to the post office. Pitney-Bowes mailing machines could be used for metered permit mail or, without a meter, for non-metered permit mail.

Copied from this interesting Web site.

http://www.officemuseum.com/mail_machines.htm

I have seen that early office equipment website before. Very informative and interesting information.

The following examples of "Permits" are from my collection. Although they are dated to the 1930's and are certainly later than the one initially posted, I thought I'd share them in the hope of receiving any additional comments on the dates in which these sort of items were first put into use. Obviously, since I have documented the earliest in my collection form August 1, 1933, it had to be before that date. While New York City may have been the most prolific user of these permits, I also find it interesting that I have one from St. Paul, MN in 1935 and even one from Kingston, NY in 1937:

I took some more efforts, and tried to date this cover, but only connected to non-postal informations I have about it, and found out that it is probably sent somewhere in the 1860-1880 period. But, it is impossible, because permits didn't exist in any form then... or I didn't understand correctly all of the posts on this thread?

I got this cover in a lot of 2, together with another cover, from 1860., which includes a letter. This another cover doesn't have any postal marks (I don't know how it traveled), so itself it doesn't prove that it is from that year, but the letter enclosed is dated (January 1, 1860), so I believe that is from that time. It is named on Miss Sylvania Dodge.

Another (a permit) letter is also named on the same person, but here name is written "Vane" now, but "Vane" is an usual short form of the name Sylvania. She is still a "Miss" in that time, and, after looking some genealogy infos on the net, Sylvania (Vane) latter was married and change her surname to Blair. So, if she was born in 1845, receive the 1860. letter while she was 15, I believe that in that was married and change her surname to Blair before 1880., because she letter also got a child (Ancestry.com says that, although it doesn't give any further infos).

So, if I look ONLY historical and genealogical informations, this letter was surely sent before 1880.-1885. period. I don't know when the first permit letters (just permits, without meters) are used?

The message could be to the Son / Daughter of the letter composed in the 1800's. The Permit mail is going to Menomonie Wi. where as the Stampless is going to the Dunn County P.O. The earliest Permit mail that I can trace back is from the 1920's as there isn't a lot of information on Permit mail. The Domestic Letter rate was 2¢ in the 1920's so I'm not sure if you were given a price break of 1¢ for using a Permit.

Menomonie Wi. is a seat of Dunn County, so I think that both of the letters was addressed to the same place, just was a different addressing in the different periods.

Vane is shorter of Sylvania, and it is not so usual that a daughter get a mother's name... I believe that both letters are addressed to the same person...

I doubt they are to the same person as the letters are probably 60+ years apart by my guess. The Permit mail actually went to a town PO as where the Stampless went to a county PO. which was probably due to the population growth in the area (The need for more PO's) The Stampless is written in 1860 as where the Permit is probably 1920's as there is no documentation of any permits prior to the 1920's that I can find.

I'm sorry I got the info wrong. Still, as stated, they are good links.

I agree with Stallzer.

Based on the style of handwriting, the embossed envelope was definitely addressed in the mid 1800's so 1860 is an accurate for the cover. In 1860, Menomonie was not the county seat of Dunn County (it would become so exactly one year after the date of this letter).

Another inconsistency between the two covers is the place it is addressed to. The 1860 cover is addressed to a specific post office (Wauska PO Office?). I am not able to find a town of that name (or any reasonable variation) on modern maps.

Permit mail was an early form of bulk mail, so it would make sense that it would go at a cheaper rate. I agree that this permit indicia was placed on the cover using a rubber hand stamp.

What we have is someone sending a relative a piece of family history from 60 or so years ago.

yes, they are! :) it is always great to know that such a great catalog is available on-line!

stallzer... I know that it will need to be from 1920's, if we look only permit usage... that is why I made a little genealogical research...

btw. are the oldest permits documented with 1c or 2c rates? because... on this latter is specified the Wisconsin state, so, it is sent from the other US state.

Domestic Mail rate starting July 1st, 1919 was 2 cents per ounce. I believe Bulk Mail (Permit & Metered)mail was at a lesser rate.

Postal Rates for Domestic Mail

Rates for Domestic Letters (1863-2011)
Effective Date Postage Rate
July 1, 1863 3¢ (per half ounce)
October 1, 1883 2¢ (half ounce)
July 1, 1885 2¢ (per ounce)
November 2, 1917 3¢ (per ounce)
July 1, 1919 2¢ (per ounce)
July 6, 1932 3¢ (per ounce)
August 1, 1958 4¢ (per ounce)
January 7, 1963 5¢ (per ounce)
January 7, 1968 6¢ (per ounce)
May 16, 1971 8¢ (per ounce)
March 2, 1974 10¢ (per ounce)
December 31, 1975 13¢ (1st ounce)
May 29, 1978 15¢ (1st ounce)
March 22, 1981 18¢ (1st ounce)
November 1, 1981 20¢ (1st ounce)
February 17, 1985 22¢ (1st ounce)
April 3, 1988 25¢ (1st ounce)
February 3, 1991 29¢ (1st ounce)
January 1, 1995 32¢ (1st ounce)
January 10, 1999 33¢ (1st ounce)
January 7, 2001 34¢ (1st ounce)
June 30, 2002 37¢ (1st ounce)
January 8, 2006 39¢ (1st ounce)
May 14, 2007 41¢ (1st ounce)
May 12, 2008 42¢ (1st ounce)
May 11, 2009 44¢ (1st ounce)

Thank you, Stallzer! I found out that there is a meter stamp society, so maybe they will know to tell me more precisely when this is sent... I will try to send them an e-mail.

They deal with Meters, not Permits.