I Need Your Help Please For A Identification 24 Cent 1870...

Hello everybody,

If someone can help me to identify this stamp at the right would be great. I think but not sure of course the stamp to the right is soft paper what do you think maybe the scott# 200 or 175 or ??

Thank you in advance

welcome bunnyos, I cant help, but I can say NICE PAIR OF STAMPS. Welcome to the forum. Someone will jump in and help you with those, but I just wanted to say hi and welcome. Glad to see those pictures. YAHOO! - Jeff

Thank you jhlovell

Scott 153. The fading on the second stamp is common.

This stamp is known in a few variations:

#142, grilled, cat value $6500 in used. None known unused. Grilled issues should be accompanied by a certificate.

#153, cat value $175? (been a couple of years since I checked). Very popular issue.

#164, none can be identified. I don't have my catalogue available at the moment, so am trying to go from memory. I think there was change from American Banknote co to Continental Banknote co printings. The other values had a special mark added to the dies in order to identify them as Continental. Somehow the 24 cent value did not get a special mark and as a result, there is no known way to identify Continental printings.

Special Printings. I don't have the catalogue numbers handy, so all I can say is that they are in the hundreds of thousand$ of dollars.

Anyways, this is a brief summation of this issue. It is very popular and difficult to acquire in sound/well-centered condition. Great stamps!

Brian

Welcome bunnyos. Both 175 and 200 were extremely limited special printings. The total production for both was only 286 stamps, so unfortunately you can cross those possibilities off of your wish list. Scott #142 is a grilled stamp and yours is not. Bummer, cross it off as well. There is only one certified copy of Scott #164 in existence, so there is another one for the cross off list. The only possibility that remains is that it must be a #153. I must say however, that your left stamp with its bright color is on the extraordinary side. The major of #153s are very faded or under-inked much like the stamp on the right.

Welcome! Beautiful pair of stamps you have there! I still need that one so your ahead of me on that account! Happy holidays as well! -Jay

btw, NYC auction house sales of a #200 are reported on www.theswedishtiger.com The highest price realized since 2003 was $12,000.00. All are MNG as issued. As for #175 the highest prices realized was in 2006 at $28,000.00 for MH and in 2010 for $16,500.00 used

First, welcome to SCF.
Neither stamp is printed on soft porous paper. The 24 cent banknote was printed by bothe National and Continental (American printed the Scott 200 on soft paper are a special printing). NBNC and CBNC both used the same plates and no secret mark was applied, therefore the impressions are indistinguishable. The only listing for CBNC 164 is based on ribbed paper (known to have only been used by CBNC). The CBNC prinyed a large quanity of these stamps and regular hard paper and a few on silk fiber paper. Without the ribbed paper thes stamp is considered 153 National. Scott still does not distinguish the CBNC ssilk fiber paper as being a seperate Continental stamp.

The color variance in this issue is partially due to fading and also largely due to the instability of the ink during the gumming process. A series of letters between the National Bank Note Co and the Post Office Department discuss this problem:

From National Bank Note Company
National Bank Note Company
New York, April 4, 1870
Sir: We have this day sent you per United States mail, package containing proofs of the new stamps, viz: Two impressions (200 stamps each) of one cent, two cents, three cents, six cents, ten cents, twelve cents, twenty-four cents, thirty cents, and ninety cents.
Yours, very respectfully,
A. D. Shepard, Treasurer.
To - Hon. W. H. H. Terrell
Third Assistant Postmaster-General, Washington, D. C.

---------------------------

To National Bank Note Company
Post-Office Department,
Office of Third Assistant Postmaster-General
Washington, D. C., April 6, 1870
Sir: The color selected and agreed upon for the twenty-four cent stamp, new series, was a pure purple. The gummed and perforated specimen received to-day from the stamp agent is altogether unlike and inferior in color, as you will observe by comparing the proofs with the gummed and perforated specimens. The color last referred to is the poorest I ever saw; it looks like poke-berry juice after a hard rain. Please investigate at once, and by all means lt us have the pure purple equal to the proof-samples. Mr. Boyd has been instructed by telegraph not to issue any of the twenty-four cent stamps of the defective color.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
W. H. H. Terrell,
Third Assistant Postmaster-General.
To - J. Macdonough, Esq.,
Secretary National Bank Note Company, New York.

---------------------------

From National Bank Note Company
National Bank Note Company
New York, April 9, 1870
Dear Sir: Your communication of 6th instant came duly to hand, and would have been immediately acknowledged but that it was thought best to ascertain the reasons for the marked difference in color between the proofs and impressions.
We find that all the carmine tints are injured by the heat of the drying-rooms and the action of the acid of the gum; and the result was shown very unfavorably for us, on the six and twenty-four cent stamps.
Since the receipt of your letter we have worked all of the doubtful colors very carefully and we have got them like the colors on the accepted proofs; we will forward you early next week impressions all gummed and perforated, showing the improved colors.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. Macdonough, Secretary
To - Hon. W. H. H. Terrell
Third Assistant Postmaster-General, Washington, D. C

---------------------------

To National Bank Note Company
Post-Office Department,
Office of Third Assistant Postmaster-General
Washington, D. C., Mau 2, 1870
Sir: The following telegram was sent you this morning: "General Terrell accepts sample No. 2 as color for the twenty-four-cent stamps."
To prevent mistakes, I herewith inclose some stamps taken from the sheet submitted by you.
Very respectfully,
W. M. Ireland,
Acting Third Assistant Postmaster-General
To - J. Macdonough, Esq.,
Secretary National Bank Note Company, New York
---------------------------

From National Bank Note Company
National Bank Note Company
New York, April 19, 1870
Dear Sir: We are in receipt of your favor of 18th instant, and telegram of this date, informing us that "General Terrell accepts sample No. 2 as color for twenty-four-cent stamps."
We shall immediately proceed with the printing, and will furnish proof-sheets of this stamp, in the No. 2 color, to your Department soon as they can be prepared, to be used instead of the proofs you now have.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. Macdonough, Secretary
To - W. M. Ireland, Esq.,
Acting Third Assistant Postmaster-General, Washington, D. C.
---------------------------

Although the letters seem to indicate that the color issue was resolved, this stamp was produced with great color variance due to the elevated temperatures in the gum drying process.

My 2011 Scott Specialized suggests that the #153 is known in "purple" and "bright purple" color varieties. Could this be what is represented by the two scans? The value doesn't change for either variety, listed as $230 (used) for VF condition. Of course if you look at the stamps in terms of its grading, the values can range from a low of $65 (VG) to a high of $3250 (Superb). A stamp of (F) grading, which is probably what you have, have a catalog value of $100.

Thank you for the clarification on the differences between the printings. I'm curious about the "Certified" 164. Is the ribbed paper variety considered a 164 proper, a variance (164var), or something else? Thanks!

Here is one more letter that I forgot

From D. M. Boyd, stamp-agent

United States Postage-Stamp and Envelope Agency
New York, April 18, 1870
Sir: Inclosed please find a sheet of twenty-four cent stamps submitted, as near like the specimen as the contractors think they can be produced. If acceptable, the full series can be issued by Monday, the 25th instant, not before, as this color takes much longer to dry than any of the others.
I send to-day to all the offices requiring twelve-cent stamps that have been detained, and I am ready to issue that denomination on future orders.
Respectfully yours,
D. M. Boyd, Agent
To - Hon. W. H. H. Terrell,
Third Assistant Postmaster-General, Washington, D. C.

As the letter states "as this color takes much longer to dry than any of the others" it is open to speculation that the color fix may have been in drying the gum at room temperature or at least at a reduced temperature. During production these step may have been short cut to meet the shipment requirements.

Brian, the only certified Continental 24 cent (164) is based entirely on the paper being ribbed. Only one example is known.

Even though it falls a bit outside my usual area of interest, this has been a fabulous discussion. Kudos to all, and thanks, Russ, for spending the time to include the correspondence.

Very fascinating Thank you Russ!

Hello everybody,

Thank you so much for your quick answer.
Can you explane how can I see If the paper is paper being ribbed please?

I appreciated your story about the letters and everthings else for learning more about this stamp.

I wish you the best for the new year 2012 at all.
Bunnyos

Very interesting to read the correspondence from back then "your obedient servant"

"poke-berry juice after a hard rain" made me laugh

those would just be emails today :)